[Jeff_Mingay]

Sadly, there hasn't been much restorative-based work carried out at Canada's best pre-WWII golf courses; and, in my opinion, our country has quite a few good ones from this era which possess some serious potential for improvement through some restorative-based work.

My friend, Rob Thompson, has an interesting list of "Top Six Canadian Courses that should be Restored" posted at his blog today. Check it out here: http://www.ontgolf.ca/g4g/

Rob's choices are good.

His no. 1, Hamilton, is a great choice. It wouldn't take much - adjustment to grass lines, restyling the bunkers, some tree work - to make Hamilton a genuine world top-50 golf course. Colt's routing, over a wonderful piece of ground, is excellent and basically still intact; though, there's a tremednous opportunity to restore Colt's 15th and 16th holes, which would markedly improve the course.  

Basically intact as well, Colt's 15th green is currently used for the first hole on the Robbie Robinson-designed nine holes there, at Hamilton.

Off the top of my head, I'd add the following "high-profile" Canadian courses to Rob's list: Royal Colwood (Vernon Macan); Capilano (Stanley Thompson); and Toronto Golf Club (Harry Colt), which is Canada's "National Golf Links". In other words, Colt's design at Toronto revolutionized the Canadian golfing landscape, setting a new standard.

It should be noted, too, that some interesting restorative-based work has been carried out recently at Essex (Donald Ross/Renaissance Golf) and Calgary Golf (Willie Park Jnr./Ron Forse). And, I have a CLASSIC consulting report written by Rod Whitman for Mayfair, in Edmonton, that was never utilized by the club. This document is a treasure!

[Scott Witter]

Jeff:

Not here to debate your choices, but I thought Ian Andrew was doing a fair amount of restorative work in Canada?

[Jeff_Mingay]

Scott,

You're right, and I apologize to my friend Ian for not mentioning his work at St. George's in particular along with Essex and Calgary. (St. George's was completed a number of years ago now. My mind was thinking more recent stuff.)

Ian's currently at work at Scarboro and elsewhere. I haven't seen his most recent work yet, but hopefully Ian chimes in here... perhaps with some thoughts, too, on what continues to prohibit restorative-based work in many cases.

There are a lot more opportunities in Canada than Essex, Calgary and St. George's.

[Tyler Kearns]

Jeff,

Ron Prichard has submitted plans to restore the Ross designed Elmhurst Golf Links, and Mike DeVries has been slowly restoring the Mackenzie style back into the North nine at St. Charles here in Winnipeg.

Not sure I can let the cat out of the bag on a project we are working on along these lines just yet.

TK

[Jeff_Mingay]

Tyler,

I visited Elmhurst more than a year ago now; and, in fact, I have Prichard's plans for the course here in my office.

It's a very interesting plan, but not quite "restoration". In fact, Ron's actually building 2-3 new holes there. I walked the clearing for the new holes done by the course superintendent.

I've also seen DeVries' work at St. Charles. It's not complete or comprehensive though.

I think the word "restoration" is throw around too arbitrarily. In my mind, there's a big difference between true restoration and restorative-based work.

[Tyler Kearns]

Jeff,

I agree, restoration is thrown around to often, and you caught me doing it.

In fact, we met and discussed the project the day you toured Elmhurst, and as you mentioned, the fact that Ron is proposing to build 2 new holes would eliminate it from being a restoration. The funny this is about that project is that moving the driving range was always the great impediment to a true restoration, and Ron's plan actually does re-locate the range. All they need to do is re-build the old 9th hole (I have a framed photo taken from the air of this original hole at home) were the current range exists, and break up the par-five 13th into two short par-fours to mimic Ross' original course. I have always believed Ron was pretty faithful in his restorations, and likely, club politics are the issue at play, but it is very possible at Elmhurst.

Back to the issue of terminology. How many courses have really undergone a true restoration? Is pushing a back tee 60 yards back into the trees to re-institute the original landing area so as not to re-locate fairway bunkers true restoration, or restorative-based?  It likely interrupts the routing and flow of the golf course, something most golden age designers were noted for. It is certainly the better choice if space permits, but that is not exactly as (insert architect) built it.

TK

[Jeff_Mingay]

Interesting question, Tyler, re moving a tee back in order to "restore" the character of a hole during a bygone era when the golf ball wasn't traveling nearly as far.

Is that "restoration"?

I guess in a way it is, but not really  

[Peter Pallotta]

"Ian's currently at work at Scarboro and elsewhere. I haven't seen his most recent work yet, but hopefully Ian chimes in here... perhaps with some thoughts, too, on what continues to prohibit restorative-based work in many cases."

Jeff, I wonder if it's not 'cultural', at least in part. One of the things Americans seem to do well (and better than Canadians) is celebrate and honour its heroes/achievements/great works...and great golf courses (as evidenced by this site). And I thinking they do it for both noble and very practical reasons.

As you know, read any list of Canada's fine pre-WW II courses and it's amazing how long and diverse it is, and how many of the great names/ODGs it includes...and yet there seems to be little appetite to honour those courses and to celebrate them, for either noble or practical reasons; and so little appetite to think sensitive restorations worth doing.

It's as if the members at these courses seem to think it might be in poor taste to shout out the good news from the roof-tops...

Peter

[Matthew MacKay]

Westmount

Ottawa Hunt

The Summit

Lakeview

Uplands

Chedoke

[SPDB]

I can't believe that no one has mentioned restoring Herbert Strong's Manoir Richelieu.  

[Bob Jenkins]

Jeff,

Good topic. Regarding Capilano, I understand the routing has not changed from the original Thompson design and changes have been minimal. About 15 years ago, I believe the green of the short 14th was destroyed when the adjacent creek overflowed and its location was changed slightly in the rebuild. I have a copy of the course history at home and will check but that publication has very little course information but lots of info on past tournaments, members, etc and early correspondence between Thompson and the founding members. One weakness of the course, in my opinion, has been the bunkering and I am curious as to whether the original bunkering was more interesting.

Regarding Banff, I also agree that a lot of work can be done. I recall playing there in the early 80's when the first tee was over the pro shop beside or attached to the Banff Springs Hotel. It was an amazing tee shot. Routing with the beginning and ending right at the hotel was terrific. Once they added the new nine, I assume they could no longer start and end at the hotel and hence the building of the new ugly clubhouse well down the course. From photos that have appeared on this site and I recall seeing elsewhere, there have been some significant changes although you would know better than I.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Peter:

I'm not sure it's a "cultural" thing.

These days, Stanley Thompson seems to command the same kinda respect throughout the Canadian golfing community as Donald Ross, for example, does throughout the United States.

For some other reason though, the restorative-based work on Thompson courses throughout Canada has not (yet, at least) been as comprehensive and wide-spread as restorative-based work on Ross courses throughout the USA.

Matt:

Interesting list.

I'll throw Royal Ottawa in this conversation as well. I visted Royal Ottawa some five years ago and was pleasantly surprised. I'm not sure "restoring" Tom Bendelow's original design there would be smart, but it's a property with good potential (not to mention the wonderful old-time clubhouse presiding over the home green).

Royal Ottawa could be greatly improved with injection of a more antiquated sensibility throughout the golf course, to match the history of the club, in general, as well as some really neat old-time features - ie push-up greens featuring rectangular fill pads - still leftover.

Thinking about it, Royal Ottawa has a lot of potential to be one of Canada's great "old fashion" places for golf.    

Bob:

I think most people would agree, Step 1 at "restoring" Banff would be to re-institute the original sequence, heading "out" from the hotel and "back". This WAS one of the magnificent charms of a round of golf at Banff; no question about it.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Matt:

I drove by Chedoke, in Hamilton, yesterday. This course was the original site of Hamilton Golf and Country Club, right?

Was it Thompson, Cumming and Thompson who originally designed the municipal course there now? And, if so, is there anything there to genuinely restore?

Just curious, 'cause it looks odd from the highway.  

[Tyler Kearns]

Bob,

I believe some work has been done to the 6th green complex at Capilano as well. Has any work been done to 11? It didn't feel like the others if my memory serves me correctly.

TK

[Matthew MacKay]

Jeff, from 403 you see the 15th hole of the Beddoe course at Chedoke...it certainly is funky, but the Beddoe course has some superb holes, including a very solid finishing hole.

The Martin course is the site of the original HGCC, and there are a few very good holes on it. An amalgam of the Martin and the Beddoe could really be something.

The location at the foot of Hamilton 'Mountain' affords some amazing views that could be much better with a badly needed tree-trim.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Tyler and Bob:  

If my memory serves correctly - perhaps Ian A. knows more, having worked there with Doug Carrick - greens 5, 6, 11, 13 (?) and 14 at Capilano have been altered since Thompson's day. 6 and 11 are particularly odd, featuring very difficult slope and contour as well.    

Thanks for "the word" on Chedoke, Matt.

[Ian Andrew]

I need people to define restorative first.

If I put back half the bunkers to their original condition on a course that has been altered and then "sympathetically renovate" the remainder to match - what is that? (Kawartha)

If I restore the original bunkers and then rebuild the new bunkers on the “4 new greens” using old photos to make them match the original bunkers - what is that? (20 of 104 bunkers at St. George's)

At Scarboro, the bunkers at the greens have been put back as near as we "can tell from the information we have,” but Gil and I have added new fairway bunkers to seven holes at Scarboro because there was "none" on the old aerials - what is that?

I have restored a number of holes at courses where the rest of the course is highly altered so the remaining dozen or more holes are renovated – does it have to be an entire course to be called restorative – or does one hole count?

You see if you get this down to fine enough detail - there is no such thing as a restoration.

I once asked Bruce Hepner theoretically what are the limits in restoration – I was new to this and didn’t want to make mistakes. I asked him is it still restoration if you get the bunker lines correct but you notice the water is running into the bunker and washing out the face. So you raise the grade enough to divert the water but not enough to be noticed. Is that still restoration? Bruce said - who cares – it’s the right thing to do.

There is restorative work being done - some is very pure other work is less clear because of the amount courses are altered beyond recovery. I try to be specific on my web site – but even then you end up making judgments.

I’ll comment on other things in a little while -  I have kids to retrieve - one of the joys of being home today.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Ian:

I would call your work at Kawartha and St. George's "restorative-based". You're not renovating to a new style, but trying to make the entire golf course match a Thompson style and aesthetic regardless of the originality of 100% of the features.

What to call the addition of new fairway bunkers at Scarboro? Frankly, I'm of the same mind as Bruce in certain cases, who really cares. But, these additions are clearly renovation.

In short, I think any time you do work that's not original but is based on the original architect's style, aesthetic, strategies etc. it can accurately be called "restorative-based". My point is, there's no such thing as true restoration. That's why I prefer the term "restorative-based" as a means to not mislead people when carrying out this type of work.  

[Ian Andrew]

I thought I would respond to some individual stuff:

Jeff,

First off – I’m not sure I agree with you on this one – although it may be our different definitions on restorative. I think serious early attempts were made but often the lack of research was the issue more than the desire of the clubs or individuals. I think some holes have been individually restored but not those golf courses as a whole. I do think history matters to most clubs in Canada although in truth we are only about 10 years in with history being important. I guess what I’m saying is we are early in – but Canadians have really embraced the idea.

There are a lot of small clubs that really have held on to their history but they are too low a profile to ever find a discussion on a site like this. Catarqui was largely restored but most people have never heard of the place. Another example is the work of Mike DeVries at St. Charles – the holes restored on the Mackenzie nine are really great. It may be only a few holes but that is the reality of clubs with limited resources. The work by Ron Force’s at Calgary G&CC is really truly excellent and I sent notes to him and Jim.

A side note on all this, the work by John Fought at Rosedale is not restorative, but architecturally appropriate and really well done. While not restorative, it is based around the history of the club and one of the key architects – Ross.

Thinking about it – I have no idea what you would call Scarboro – the more I think about it let’s call it a renovation because there are lots of new fairway bunkers. There were certainly quite a few things put back to as near as we could figure them out to be from the information I was able to collect- but restoration would be too loose a use of the term.

Matt,

If I showed you what was originally there at Westmount, you might change your mind.
Uplands would need the houses removed – there’s actually only seven holes still there.

SPBD,

It’s been completely rebuilt – there’s no coming back – I have photos of every hole from opening.

Bob,

Capilano is pretty intact other than 4 greens have been rebuilt (I warn you this is more from memory than notes). The only picture that exists of any is of the 14th. Yes 11 and 6 have been rebuilt by Les Furbur. I can’t recall the other green. I’m certain the 5th is original and I think as Jeff mentioned the 13th might be the other – but I’m not certain enough. The bunkering is largely intact – the question is more with the bunker lines than the forms. Of note: Doug did shift a series of bunkers out into play, but otherwise most original shapes are still intact. This is a course that needs more historical information before it can restored.

I feel Banff is an easy fix – it’s very intact in most places. The first hole needs to go back to the original green (1st tunnel) and the grassing lines can be returned to the old lines too (much wider fairways). The fescue is new and much needs to go. They do play the original routing on occasions.

Jeff,

The original Chedoke was not Thompson – the “new” 18 (around 1948) was the Thompson course. I have construction photos from one of the Forman’s sons. The original one was done by a Landscape architect working for the city.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Ian makes a good point, which I intended to make in an earlier post, re resources (ie $$$) being a major limiting factor in the relatively limited "restoration" work undertaken in Canada to-date. This is probably very true in many instances.

Re defining different approaches to working at older courses. My point is simply that "restoration" isn't an appropriate term. I think "Restorative-based" or "Sympathetic Restoration" is a better fit with the reality of such projects. In my experience, using the term "restoration" can create confusion, and in turn, contempt.

[Robert Thompson]

Let's be frank here -- until recent years there has been very, very little interest in restoration at great Canadian courses. That's why Furber and Cooke have had such a go at some grand old tracks (Highlands, Mayfair, Banff, etc.).

However, some clubs are coming around, and that's why Ian's services have been in demand, and why Devries, and others have had a hand in some projects.

Why a club like Hamilton doesn't revert back as much as is possible, rebuild some greens and redo the bunkering, especially given the history it has at its disposal, baffles me.

[Tyler Kearns]

Matt,

It has been 12 years since I played in the Cdn. Jr. at Chedoke, and while my memory of the details in foggy, #15 has always stuck in my mind. The card at this short par-four reads birdie, but I am sure over time it exacts a penalty on most who play it.

TK

[henrye]

Jeff.  You mention Toronto.  What would you suggest be done there?

[Jeff_Mingay]

Rob:

I agree 110% with your perspective re Hamilton.

Along with Highlands Links and a hole or two at St. George's (most notably the third), Hamilton is THE prime candidate for some "restorative-based" work that would UNDOUBTEDLY take the course into the next level - again, I'm talking about the possibility of World Top-50 status (not that I put a lot of thought into golf course rankings); there's that kinda potential there, in my opinion.

And, as I mention above, the work required isn't even that big of a deal. It's relatively inexpensive, non-intrusive-type stuff for the most part.

HenryE:

Re Toronto. I'd have make a visit to detail what I think should be done there. However, it's the same old stuff: grassing lines, bunkers, trees, perhaps rebuild a couple greens, like the second, all in reference to Colt's original "vision" that would inevitably improve Toronto Golf; which I hope is in the works. If memory serves correctly, hasn't the club recently hired Martin Hawtree as a consultant?

[Robert Thompson]

Jeff: Yes Hawtree is doing the work at Toronto. I have the plan. But it isn't restorative. More in the spirit of Colt, and includes a pretty big change to the first hole.

As for Hamilton, I often wonder if it isn't the best example of a great club working with an average designer who has no practical experience in Colt's work. Wonder what it would be like if someone like Hanse, who really knows Colt's work, got a kick at it.

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