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Matt_Cohn

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Peacock Gap
« on: November 29, 2007, 01:07:01 AM »
A handful of us played in the media day today at Peacock Gap north of San Francisco. We were able to spend a lot of time talking with Forrest Richardson about his work; for those of you who haven't met Forrest, spending a lot of time talking with him is a very pleasant and enjoyable thing to do!

I know there are more comments and pictures forthcoming from others, so here are three thoughts to get the ball rolling:

1) The pictures posted on GCA a few weeks back were both accurate and deceiving. Accurate because 6 greens are really wild; deceiving because the other 12 are more normal-ish, although definitely not flat and generally with more small-scale contours. There really are 6 of one kind and 12 of the other, and not any that are in-between. In our group I think our general consensus was liking some of the more subtle greens more (2, 3, 12, and our favorite #13).

2) Forrest made it a point to introduce some strategy and central hazards to the course. There are definitely at least 5 holes (7, 9, 15, 17, 18) where new central or intruding hazards really give you a choice of line from the tee. Generally speaking the risk/reward propositions on those holes are pretty good. There is an real mix of narrower holes (2, 11, 14), average-width holes (1, 5, 15), and very wide ones (8 and 9 especially).

3) What will the public and Peacock Gap's potential members think? Let me put it this way...it's not a shoo-in that people in general are going to like it. Very few Marin golfers have ever seen greens like that before, and they haven't seen many holes like the double-plateau-green, blind-from-almost-everywhere short par-4 #7, and they might not get why the course's two longest par 4's have probably its two most difficult greens, too. How will the typical Peacock Gap golfer react to a handful of fallaway greens or green portions ("They don't hold!"), central hazards ("They're right where a good shot should go!"), and dramatic green contours ("It's not fair to have an impossible putt after you hit the green!"). The answer is...I don't know how they'll react, and my guess is that a lot of people involved with the project might be a bit anxious until they find out.

Mark_Fine

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Re:Peacock Gap
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2007, 07:29:03 AM »
Matt,
Word on the street is that you are the current course record holder with a smooth 69  ;)  Maybe Forrest made it too easy  ;D

There is not a lot of topo going on with the terrain and I think Forrest did a nice job introducing some interest (as well as some controversy).  It sure will get talked about.
Mark

David_Tepper

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Re:Peacock Gap
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2007, 09:16:29 AM »
Matt -

I assume you played from the back tees. Did you hit driver on all the par-4's & par-5's? Would you do so again?

Did they announce when the course would open for play?

DT

Jed Peters

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Re:Peacock Gap
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2007, 09:30:56 AM »
Matt,
Word on the street is that you are the current course record holder with a smooth 69  


There was nothing "smooth" about it.

Matt -

I assume you played from the back tees. Did you hit driver on all the par-4's & par-5's? Would you do so again?

Did they announce when the course would open for play?

DT

Matt hit driver on pretty much every hole off the tee except for 17 (and the par 3s) from what I remember. Right Matt?

As for when it was opening, I suspect there's a big line waiting to go out today, as it's the first "opening" day.

Jed Peters

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Re:Peacock Gap
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2007, 10:10:17 AM »
Okay, I'll post some of my thoughts on the course....

First off, Forrest is just simply a great guy to talk to and to be around. Really a nice dude. Thanks for the invite, and speaking a bit, Forrest!!!

--As for the course as a whole, I thought it was interesting that the management company had "30 million" to spend, but only spent $5m on the golf course--in my mind it needed more than that.

--I thought the choice to open "today" in the condition that the course is in is aggressive. Perhaps overly so? I'd hate to see the newly laid seed (that was barely taking hold in some spots and overgrown in others) get trampled or otherwise die because the course opened for play prematurely. Also, I thought the course was about a solid 45 days of maintenance away from being ready to open as well to ANYONE. But, I also realize time was not a luxury!

--What Forrest and his team tried to do with the greens and complexes there to create interest struck me indeed as "interesting". I never really felt that comfortable on any one given hole just because of the fact that I was not really sure what that next green complex was going to be like...there didn't seem to be a real "rhythm" to the track, just a lot of different types of golf holes.

--I LOVED the par 3s. These (5) were DEFINITELY the best part of the course. I thought the collection of these holes were fun, interesting, and varied. I especially like the 13th hole, where I got up on the tee and said "I like this hole". Same for the 3rd hole. I liked that hole as well.

I will say this--Forrest's renovation there was bold and makes somewhat of a statement in his choosing to design the course how he did. The greens are pretty wild--and I'm coming from Morgan Creek, where almost every green has that "wild" feeling to it.....but our stuff is tame compared to what Forrest did here!

Nevertheless, thanks a ton forrest for inviting us out there, we had a great time meeting and talking to you!

Matt_Cohn

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Re:Peacock Gap
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2007, 10:55:30 AM »
David,

I hit driver on all the long holes (and would again) except for 9, 15, and 17 where I hit 3-wood into the wide part of the fairway, 3-wood short of the mounds, and 3-iron short of the canal respectively.

The central bunker on 18 made me think - it's exactly where I'd want to drive the ball and there's no obvious, comfortable alternative. I ended up just skirting it with a driver to the left. It's almost 440 yards, so laying up with a 3-wood didn't seem feasible, but that central bunker is really deep.

By the way, since a couple of us were wondering, green fees are $65/$80 weekdays, $75/$90 weekends.

Tom Huckaby

Re:Peacock Gap
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2007, 11:02:13 AM »
Gents:

Sadly I didn't see the invite for yesterday's event until this morning... not as if I could have gone anyway....   :'(

Questions:  it always was a very decent walk - that hasn't changed, has it?

Greens looked wacky in pics - it's good to hear they proved out as such in person.  How was the speed?  Are they going to get so fast that these contours promote goofy golf, or will they be kept at reasonable speed?

Is it worth going up to play soon, or better to wait until after winter rains and after further grow-in?  How is drainage (if you could tell)?

Thanks.

TH
« Last Edit: November 29, 2007, 11:04:03 AM by Tom Huckaby »

Bill_McBride

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Re:Peacock Gap
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2007, 11:59:30 AM »
Please tell me about the hole in that one green, that looked in the photo like there was no low point for drainage.  Where the hell does the water go?  Or does it never rain in San Rafael?  ???

Forrest does like to play with your head a bit.

This must have been so different from the renovation of a "classic" course where the intent would be restoration to existing aerials, photos, sketches, etc.  Sounds like Forrest had more or less a blank canvas and was able to do some cool stuff.

It sounds like this adds an interesting new choice to an otherwise pretty undistinguished group of public courses in Marin County.

Matt_Cohn

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Re:Peacock Gap
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2007, 11:59:48 AM »
We rode but it would still be a very easy walk.

Forrest specifically mentioned that they're working to keep the greens at reasonable speeds. They were probably 9 or 9.5 yesterday and I don't think they anticipate going much over 10.

Couldn't tell anything about the drainage although apparently a lot has been done in that regard.

As far as playing it, the greens are very good, but within a few yards of the greens there are plenty of rough edges and spots where things haven't really come together yet. They were actually laying sod around a few bunkers as we played yesterday. The conditions are fine and there's no reason to stay away. However, it will require a return trip next spring/summer once things have settled in.

Tim Leahy

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Re:Peacock Gap
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2007, 12:30:55 PM »
I heard that this course had a ton of in course OB in the past, has that changed at all.
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Tom Huckaby

Re:Peacock Gap
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2007, 12:31:29 PM »
Matt:  gotcha.  As a guy who's likely gonna be allowed one trip and one trip only to San Rafael, I think I will wait until April or so to get up there.

It does sound pretty cool.  Here's hoping the public gets it.

TH

Joel_Stewart

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Re:Peacock Gap
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2007, 12:41:08 PM »
I took a few pictures which are below.  I can't add much more to what Jed and Matt have said other than the course plays to 6,200 yards and there wasn't a lot of room to add length so Forrest did what he could to add interest in the greens.  The course is dead flat, maybe the flattest course in the world.  On one hole (and only one hole) he added two very large chocalate drops to add some visual interest.  Somehow it would have been interesting if he had added some movement to the fairways.

The greens on probably six holes are extreme and the 18th (bottom photo) is over the top.  I agree with Matt that it will be interesting to see how the average golfer responds to the course because most have never seen anything like this before.

The course plays to a par 71 and should really be a 69 or 70.  I reached all the par 5's in 2.  The par 3's are very good, very different and play to different lengths.

I'll try and post some more photos later.









Tom Huckaby

Re:Peacock Gap
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2007, 12:44:30 PM »
flattest course in the world?

I seem to recall a large rock outcropping one hit at least one tee shot off of... and then another tee up near the clubhouse, which is also pretty raised... did they do away with all of that?

18 green looks VERY wacky.  Oh yes, I fear for people getting that... perhaps I ought to go play it before it inevitably gets flattened?


Joel_Stewart

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Re:Peacock Gap
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2007, 12:59:19 PM »
flattest course in the world?


Its a joke but it is dead flat.  It's also at sea level and I believe they tried to dig down a foot or so and hit the water table so they didn't have a lot to work with.  With a limited budget the architect needs to make choices and Forrest did what he could.   They put extensive work and money in the drainage and irrigation system which was probably over $1 million and new cart paths which was probably another $1 million so that only leaves $3 million and maybe less to put into the course?

Tom Huckaby

Re:Peacock Gap
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2007, 01:11:33 PM »
Again, you mean flat fairways, right?

Or did they really remove those two raised tee shots from before?

TH

David_Tepper

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Re:Peacock Gap
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2007, 01:17:19 PM »
Tom -

The elevations around the clubhouse (1st & 10th tees and 18th green) and the rock outcrop (on the front nine) are still there and still used as tees. They are still in play.

DT

Joel_Stewart

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Re:Peacock Gap
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2007, 01:21:54 PM »
Here is a photo of the 10th, playing 133.  It has the small thumbprint in the middle left to the green which is going to raise a few eyebrows for those who have to putt into or around it.

You can see by the holes behind it as an indication of how flat the fairways are.


Tom Huckaby

Re:Peacock Gap
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2007, 01:24:29 PM »
Tom -

The elevations around the clubhouse (1st & 10th tees and 18th green) and the rock outcrop (on the front nine) are still there and still used as tees. They are still in play.

DT

Cool.  Forrest would have had some 'splainin to do if those were removed.

 ;D

Joel_Stewart

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Re:Peacock Gap
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2007, 06:36:55 PM »
Here are 3 photos of different par 3's showing tremendous flexibility and differences.

#3 175 yards, slightly uphill.  Fairly hard



#6 176 yards, over water with large backstop



#16, also over water but more of a lake than a pond.

Forrest Richardson

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Re:Peacock Gap
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2007, 11:44:12 PM »
It was an enjoyable day and I appreciate all of the comments — even the critical questions. Sometimes the critical comments can be the best.

The course will be great come April, but as was stated: no reason to stay away. At the moment it is very good and I appreciate the great work of John Rader, the greenkeeper. What an amazing job he has done considering his course was mostly dirct from April through June.

I was not surprised at Matt's 69 — amazine what one can do with those really big metal woods.   ;D
« Last Edit: November 30, 2007, 03:31:48 PM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Wayne_Freedman

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Re:Peacock Gap
« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2007, 01:48:14 AM »
I took tons of photos. If someone will tell me how, I will be happy to post them.

PG is better than before the renovation, but anything would  have improved it. PG is no longer a pedestrian golf course with flat, uninteresting greens. Now, it is all about the greens. I'm not certain I agree with all of Forrest's artificial improvements  (choc drops, dimples, etc). I question whether the course is possibly overdone.  Eccentricity is  positive  when old or natural, but it can be annoying when forced. Personally, I think they overdid it in places, but golf course design is an art, and art invites discussion. Forrest had 5 million dollars, a so-so piece of land, and I respect the effort. Anybody can criticize, but this is a helluva' thing to do.  


1 remains a terrific opening hole. Carry the bunkers left, cut the corner, and it can reward you.

2 is good, as well. Green changes and additional bunkers add interest.

3 is also an improvement, with better bunkering in front, and a large, difficult green complex.

The changes in 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 are a give/take push. The course no longer has two back-to-back, 90 degree holes in 5 and 6. But, the new #5 is much easier. So why did I hit driver, wedge, and then three-putt from above the cup? Guess the green does provide a decent defense.

6 is pretty, but similar in theme to 15 and 16, where the greens also lie close to the water. A short pin allows you to over club, and let the ball trickle back. I like the hole. Essentially, it begins with the 2nd shot on the old #6,  but to a improved green fronted by much nicer visuals.  

7 is near great. I question the strategy of a bunker short/right, but Forrest told me it provides a view of the green. Why not put the bunker left? To me, the green invites entry from that side. The concrete path, there, creates an additional and inadvertent hazard.
I double-crossed a hope-for fade, hit the path, and my ball bounded 30 yards long, into the rough. That was weird, and I would assume not part of the strategy. Would like to see more of this biarritz style green from the fairway. Longer hitters will be able to just blast away, and then pitch or lob in, assuming they shorten the rough. And, for the sake of pace of play, they will have to.  

8 turns what used to be a long par 4 into a not-so-memorable par 5.
Sorry.

9 takes what  used to be a challenging, risk/reward par 5, and turns it  into a conservative par 4, but I didn't mind that. In the old days, you hit driver, and then decided to lay back, or else carry a creek 100 yards from the green. Now, the hole is short enough to be stupid and go for it if you're a strong player. For all the canting and potato-chipping of greens, this one is fairly flat, even though it requires one of the shorter approaches.

10 is a large and beautiful hole with much improved bunkering. It has that dimple to the left, and half a Volkswagen buried to the right. Why? Despite noted inspirations from the other  side of the pond, I question their motivations. Forrest noted that the green is large for the distance, however---"Three greens in one," he said, so you ought to be able to hit your spot. If you miss, it's more miniature golf.  

11 was a big disappointment. Water along the right, OB left, and a bunker some 220 out, guarding the corner. It requires a long, right to left drive. Hit it, and you're rewarded with a shot into a blind, hourglass green that slopes away from the back half, and probably will not hold your shot. So, what is the reward for risking that big drive?
Not fair.

14 green is interesting due to a valley running through it, but could not figure out a proper angle from which to attack it. Bump it? Fly it? Very capricious.  

15 chocolate drops...clearly, Forrest is building a golf course and a series of obstacles, but this feels like a pinball machine. To the folks in my group, they popped out of nowhere and did not fit the terrain. That said, they do make the hole more interesting. Fly 'em, or cut it around them. Maybe that is what he intended. I see the strategy, but it feels imposed on this hole.

17-I like the shortening of this hole, and  how the green now sits much closer to the creek. Go for it? Lay back? Most players can hit this green with a long iron and wedge. Great sucker hole, and also more picturesque. Less is certainly more.

18-The green is too severe for the distance, and for many golfers to reach in precision in two.  I like how Forrest opened up the right side for a more direct approach. The left/center bunker is intimidating, and introduces a go-for-it,  or lay back risk-reward element. But the green is going to hurt many players, and, I suspect, leave many leaving PG with negative feelings.

After the round, Forrest asked if I would want to play it again. Yes.
But certainly not at the $50k they're supposedly asking for memberships.  The market will have to shake down on this one.

Forrest, it was very nice meeting you and I enjoyed our conversation.
I would like to see and/or play some of your other courses. Will post my official review on my KGO site in a few days.



« Last Edit: November 30, 2007, 02:21:40 AM by Wayne_Freedman »

Jed Peters

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Re:Peacock Gap
« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2007, 02:13:11 AM »
7 is near great. I question the strategy of a bunker short/right, but Forrest told me it provides a view of the green. Why not put the bunker left? To me, the green invites entry from that side. The concrete path, there, creates an additional and inadvertent hazard.
I double-crossed a hope-for fade, hit the path, and my ball bounded 30 yards long, into the rough. That was weird, and I would assume not part of the strategy. Would like to see more of this biarritz style green from the fairway. A lot of us can just blast away, and then pitch or lob in.

Okay, please tell me HOW this is a "near great" hole.

There are virtually NO options from the tee.

The green is blind from EVERY angle (at least everything but the very left half) if you either lay-up or go for the green. You cannot even see the top of the flag.

There is a slight "channel" that can put you into the center swale of the green if you can hit the ball further than Matt Cohn (265 in the air) and inside of a 5 yard gap (I measured it).

My dad (an 8 handicapper) hit the ball 235 down the middle on a 300 yard hole.  He had no shot, no identifying yardage, no landform to "pick a spot" behind the green, nothing to pinpoint.

I (after hooking my first one) hit a drive 255 virtually to the mouth of the "slot" and couldn't see the pin, had no visual aid, etc, etc.

Matt Cohn hit his pin high left of the green, had a weird little pitch.

And don't tell me I should be playing more forward tees?????

I just don't think that the hole made any sense. Sure, have some indecision, have a blind shot if you maybe hit it in the wrong part of the fairway, but don't make EVERY option short of hitting it 300 yards disallow you to not see even the TOP of the flag or 5k sq. feet of green.



Wayne_Freedman

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Re:Peacock Gap
« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2007, 02:27:34 AM »
What? You want to argue?

I didn't say it was great.
I said it was near great.
Yeah, I was a bit effusive.  
Winston Churchill was great.

Sure you have options from the tee.
Bomb it, or lay back to 100 yards, and then, in future  rounds, use your course knowledge.

I like short par 4's...and if a guy drives the thing, or cut one in with a wide shot, it's pretty damn great. I don't like the blind element, either, but at least you see most of the green from the tee, and after a second playing, you know about the division. Nor do I like the fact that from many angles,  this blind approach also requires a carry over bunkers.

Suffice to say it's a better hole than it was. It used to be blind in the old days, too.

As for distance...cut 'em some slack. They will install markers, eventually. Yesterday, a range finder worked very well.

Play whatever tees turn you on.
We were one-up, since you would probably ask, because they most reflected the  old course, and they were fine.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2007, 02:40:39 AM by Wayne_Freedman »

Matt_Cohn

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Re:Peacock Gap
« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2007, 02:31:48 AM »
Jed,
Yeah, #7 is probably the weirdest hole there tee-to-green. I have to admit that I also didn't quite get that one. It's drivable but not really drivable, and I didn't see an appealing place to lay up, either. There's a lot going on - double plateau green, central hazard, drivable, blind, etc. - but I didn't see how it all tied together.

Joel,
Don't forget about #12 which is a distinctly unreachable par-5. It's only 540 (?) but requires, for righties, a high cut off the tee around some trees before landing in a soft fairway. Unless someone carries their high cuts 280+, they're not reaching that green in two. I hit a good one and had 278 over sand to a front pin...no chance.

Wayne,
Do you think #7 would be appealing on the 3rd or 4th play? It's a 3-wood or hybrid in the fairway and then a totally blind wedge most of the time. I'm not sure I'd really look forward to the hole. Did you find that the strategic choices were defined enough that you could actually choose between them?
« Last Edit: November 30, 2007, 02:43:21 AM by Matt_Cohn »

Wayne_Freedman

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Re:Peacock Gap
« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2007, 02:37:34 AM »
12 used to be  the longest par 5 in the county. 560, if memory serves.

Now, from one tee up, 12 was a big drive somewhat down-wind breeze, and then a hybrid that landed pin-high left, and then a lob over that hump. If memory serves, there is also a bunker somewhat short of the green, providing a bit of an optical illusion. Aside from that, no reason to not go for it.

The hole is nothing special, and wide for the length. Water on the right should not be a factor, so why not swing away?




« Last Edit: November 30, 2007, 03:34:44 AM by Wayne_Freedman »