Tee Markers, Yardage Markers, Ball Washers at Pasatiempo

[rchesnut]

The greens committee at Pasatiempo is taking a look at the signage, markers, ball washers, garbage cans ect that dot the tee areas throughout at the course.  Over the decades, the tee areas have gotten somewhat cluttered with some poor 70s area granite tee signs with color outlines of the hole, red/white/blue tee markers, benches, sand/seed boxes, yardage markers and plastic garbage cans.  With the recent restoration completed, much of the information isn't even accurate anymore, and there's a general sense that the course should go back to a simpler, more classic look around the tees when correcting this information.  

I'd love to get thoughts from posters who have played a number of classic courses and might have pictures of simple tee areas and signage that might fit a classic MacKenzie course.  In particular, we're exploring questions like how much information really needs to be on a tee sign for a semi-private course, are ball washers needed on courses today, and should the color red be avoided as a tee color to encourage senior and beginner males to play the forward tees?  We've had fun comparing our own notes from courses we've played, and we've dug up some old photos to see how the course has addressed these issues over the years, but I thought this forum might have some interesting thoughts.

Rob Chesnut

[Mike Sweeney]

I would use simple wooden tee markers with painted ends. Maybe use wood from trees that were cut down.

Yardage markers in the ground and/or on sprinkler heads.

No ball washers or garbage cans. I assume most of your public players take a cart, so have them on the cart. Maybe a garbage can at the turn somewhere.

A simple wooden bench here and there. I cant think of one place at Pasatiempo except for maybe the turn where the next tee is not obvious, so keep the signs low key. Put a map/layout on the scorecard.

I would think that Taconic has a similar balance of public versus member play, so keep it simple like Taconic:

[Tom_Doak]

Rob:

Since you've got a million pictures of the course from the 1930's, has anybody figured out what they were using for tee markers &c. back then?

I'd be willing to bet there were no granite signs.

[Ally Mcintosh]

although this question is slightly off on a tangent, it appears to be the right thread...

...can anyone tell me when yardage markers became prevalent in the fairway?... i seriously doubt whether they were at pasatiempo back in the day...

...anyone else for banning yardage markers and leaving it all up to the eye?

[Mark Smolens]

Ally, are you going to take my graphite Cobra X Speed driver next?    Surely we're past the point of reverting back to Ben Hogan's ability to simply eyeball a shot and know how far to hit it.  Yes, those halcyon days of yore were fabulous, but you canna take away my Bushnell laddie. . .

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Since Pasa is not a fully private course, yardage markers are a good idea. Something simple, yet visible, is preferred:







I've seen trash cans sunken in the ground and was impressed with that concept.

Concerning tee markers, I'm a big fan of mixing things up color-wise. Why not red for the tips or white from the front?

[rchesnut]

Tom, we've looked at the old pictures.  It appears that the club took good size  branches (about 4-6 inches in diameter) from the old oak trees and cut them into discs that were about 3 or 4 inches thick, and simply used those to designate the tee area.  With multiple tee areas, we'd probably have to place a large color spot on the disc to designate the respective tees.  But we're definitely leaning toward a return to these natural wood discs.

I've studied the old pictures carefully and found no trace of granite signs anywhere  .  I have a special landfill in mind for the ones in use now, unless someone wants to remodel their kitchen countertops with them.  The only issue is whether we need tee signage at all (since there is a significant public play) and if so, whether simply placing the hole number on a post is sufficient.  

Rob

[Tom Huckaby]

Rob:

I'd say that less is more would work wonderfully for Pasatiempo, at least in terms of signage.  You don't need yardage signs on the tees - hell the scorecard does that.  Just leave the NCGA monuments and voila, that's all you need.  I like the idea of simple signs with the hole number.  But hell, you don't even really need those... it's not like people would get lost, with the possible exception of playing 17 instead of 11 after leaving 10 green.

As for yardage markers though, well... my friend shivas can hearken for a simpler time, but that's not the way of this golf world.  Remove those at penalty of sincere whining from the many many many visitors your club gets.  If you go totally private, then hell yes, remove them all, you members know the distances and don't need the help.  But if you are going to continue to have such massive amounts of visitor play, well... being the only club with no yardage assistance will play well only with guys like shivas.  And please be assured that he is a tiny minority viewpoint in terms of those willing to shell out $200 to play your course.

TH

[Tom Huckaby]

Well, if there have to be markers, keep them to a minimum:  rectangular (not circles) at 100, 150 and 200.  The douchebag who wants a 250 marker on a par 5 to see if he should go for it in two can kiss my ever-whitening patooty.

Fully agreed.
From one ever-whitening (and widening) patooty to another.

TH

[Chuck Brown]

In the Arthur Hills restoration of the MacKenzie-designed University of Michigan Golf Course, they did include bronze hole-description signs.  My general principles are offended by anything extraneous on a golf course that ought to be regarded as a work of art.  But the striking thing about those hole markers (about as well done as any I have seen) is that they bore an uncanny resemblance to the clubhouse architecture; they were signs made in 2001 that looked like they had been there since 1931.

Still, my rule would be that the less clutter, the better the view.  I think the best tee markers are ones that can only be seen when they need to be seen -- as you approach a teeing ground and as you figure out where to put a tee.  Garbage cans, as neccessary as they may be, should be first placed where they are least visible and secondarily where they are most needed.  What I don't mind seeing are simple benches.  Perhaps it is because the sight of a bench implies that they will be used by people who are actually walking the golf course, instead of the cushioned seats of E-Z-Go carts.
And as any former caddy knows, the idea of ball washers is simply weird.  The time to wipe off a ball is after you mark it on a green.  With your towel, that you always keep damp.  At that point, a ball washer on the next tee is quite useless.

[Mike Benham]

And, in my ideal world, it would be illegal for the caddie to offer advice to the player, too.

Along those lines, having a caddie carry your bag should be illegal too ...

[rchesnut]

I think we need markers at 100/150 and 200, but not at 250  
Leaning toward simple concrete pavers in the fairway for these markers  

On tee signs, we definitely want to reduce clutter, but you'd be surprised how many players get turned around on the course Tom.   They'll play #9 after #1, #17 after #10 or #12, and even #11 after #16 (gee, this hole sure looks familiar....).  I don't think that the sign needs yardages or hole maps or the like, but perhaps just the hole number on some sort of material affixed to a post.  Chuck, I'd love to see a picture of those Michigan signs...I'm skeptical about anything bronze, but it's worth a look if they have a 1930s feel.  

Am I the only one that hates red, white and blue colors for flags and tee markers?  Primary colors like that just seem out of place on a golf course, and the red markers are tied to "ladies tees" in most golfers' eyes.  

[Tom Huckaby]

RC:

Yeah, I guess you're right.  At all of those places people could get lost.  So I am back on the pro-hole sign bandwagon.  Just do keep them simple, as you suggested.

And I am with you on hole flags.  I've gotten lazy and used to them as they tend to appear routinely these days, but in my perfect golf world each hole has a simple flag, the same color on each hole, and it's up to us to figure out the depth.  Re tee markers, they do just have to be different - what color they are has never mattered to me - but since red has come to signify ladies and it's best to get away from that to encourage shorter hitting men to move up, then other colors would seem to make sense also.

TH

[Bill_McBride]

RC:

Yeah, I guess you're right.  At all of those places people could get lost.  So I am back on the pro-hole sign bandwagon.  Just do keep them simple, as you suggested.

And I am with you on hole flags.  I've gotten lazy and used to them as they tend to appear routinely these days, but in my perfect golf world each hole has a simple flag, the same color on each hole, and it's up to us to figure out the depth.  Re tee markers, they do just have to be different - what color they are has never mattered to me - but since red has come to signify ladies and it's best to get away from that to encourage shorter hitting men to move up, then other colors would seem to make sense also.

TH

Just as long as the front tees aren't blue and golf like at Stanfurd!

[Tom Huckaby]

LOL
I always found that so funny, Bill.  Too bad you Bears don't have a course you can do the reverse on.

It is Big Game week, so this has great relevance.

 

BTW I am rethinking the whole yardage issue as it pertains to Pasatiempo.  With all the restoration efforts... and the wonderful ties to Mackenzie... it seems to me that selling this to visitors as an "old-time, golf as it was meant to be" experience would work really well.  And unless I am really missing something, there were no marked sprinkler heads or any other yardage aids in Mackenzie's day.  So why not go full-bore here and remove it all, leaving only those aids that would have appeared in Mackenzie's day?  That means just yardages on the scorecard, correct?  The more I think about it, the cooler this becomes.  One would go to Pasa FOR the old-time experience...

Heck, for those with less of a sense of adventure, you could offer Bushnells for rent or borrow.

But I think this would really work.

TH

[Tim MacEachern]

And I am with you on hole flags.  I've gotten lazy and used to them as they tend to appear routinely these days, but in my perfect golf world each hole has a simple flag, the same color on each hole, and it's up to us to figure out the depth.

I disagree.  If you want players to play faster, you have to use different colours for hole settings.  In my ideal golf course, there would be five colours of flags:  white for centre, blue for about 8-10 yards past centre, red for 8-10 yards in front of centre, and for extremely deep greens (45 - 50 yards), checkered blue/white for 18+ past centre and checkered red/white for 18+ in front of centre.  (Note: checkered blue/black is too difficult to distinguish from straight blue at a distance, that's why I think blue/white would be best.)

I'll give up my desire for purity here to have fewer players feel they need to take the time to walk or drive up to the green in order to judge pin depth.  I think the above recommendation would be a great industry standard.

[Dan Kelly]

A pet peeve of Mr. Shefchik and me, and found on many modern courses:

Hole Number/Par/Yardage signs that are aimed at the cart path, so walkers have to walk around to the cart path to see them.

P.S. Couldn't agree more with Shivas re: caddies giving advice.

[Dan Kelly]

Just as long as the front tees aren't blue and golf like at Stanfurd!

This happens to me almost every time I try to type "gold."

The fingers are well-trained (perhaps too well-trained) to type "golf."

[Tom Huckaby]

And I am with you on hole flags.  I've gotten lazy and used to them as they tend to appear routinely these days, but in my perfect golf world each hole has a simple flag, the same color on each hole, and it's up to us to figure out the depth.

I disagree.  If you want players to play faster, you have to use different colours for hole settings.  In my ideal golf course, there would be five colours of flags:  white for centre, blue for about 8-10 yards past centre, red for 8-10 yards in front of centre, and for extremely deep greens (45 - 50 yards), checkered blue/white for 18+ past centre and checkered red/white for 18+ in front of centre.  (Note: checkered blue/black is too difficult to distinguish from straight blue at a distance, that's why I think blue/white would be best.)

I'll give up my desire for purity here to have fewer players feel they need to take the time to walk or drive up to the green in order to judge pin depth.  I think the above recommendation would be a great industry standard.

Tim:

I agree that in the short-term, it would cause delay as today's lazy golfers puzzle over things and/or try to go all the way up to the green to figure things out.

And I wouldn't advise this at every course, for just this reason.

But at Pasa, trying to sell "old-time, how it was in Mackenzie's day", I think this would work, and would be cool.  People would go in knowing there's no flag help, or distance help, and would react accordingly.  Oh some humorless golfers might slow things up, but those are the ones to whom we give Bushnells.

I really think this would work, and would be an added coolness for the Pasa experience.

But no, I don't want this at my local muni.

TH

[Dan Kelly]

"I wonder which rescue hybrid Mackenzie would have used from here -- however the hell far I need to hit it."

(Just joshin', Tom IV.)

[Tom Huckaby]

"I wonder which rescue hybrid Mackenzie would have used from here -- however the hell far I need to hit it."

(Just joshin', Tom IV.)

LOL!
Heck, those inclined to take this to the logical extension could use hickories... the course could even keep some on had to rent....

Oh well.  Yeah, I guess one can get too carried away with things.  I just do think that if the course wants to hearken to Mackenzie's time - and by all indications they sure seem to want to do that - using that time period's way of ascertaining distance would make sense.

TH

[Dan Kelly]

I just do think that if the course wants to hearken to Mackenzie's time - and by all indications they sure seem to want to do that - using that time period's way of ascertaining distance would make sense.

Wholeheartedly agree.

[Jerry Kluger]

You have to be realistic in your goals and if you don't give the player enough information it can slow down play considerably.  If one player who has a cart wants to know the pin placement and insists on driving up to the green, the pace of play will slow dramatically - add a few more and you have a real problem. It has gotten more and more common to see the pros walk up to the green and then back to their ball and this has not helped the situation.  Looking for yardages can also be a problem - I have seen green plastic yardage markers which are below fairway height and they are not distracting.  Again, this is a pace of play issue.

As far as tee markers go, my view is that if you must have them, then make them as simple as possible.  Flat markers lying on the ground are the best as the player should not be prevented from standing outside the markers to play his shot.

[Tim Gavrich]

I personally think that the red/white/blue color scheme is pretty classy, so if it were up to me,  would employ red/white/blue pins and tees.  If you want to make it look less busy, perhaps you might use for tee markers plates with the Pasatiempo logo on them.  I'm thinking of the tee markers I've seen in pictures of TOC and other courses over there.

[Tom Huckaby]

You have to be realistic in your goals and if you don't give the player enough information it can slow down play considerably.  If one player who has a cart wants to know the pin placement and insists on driving up to the green, the pace of play will slow dramatically - add a few more and you have a real problem. It has gotten more and more common to see the pros walk up to the green and then back to their ball and this has not helped the situation.  Looking for yardages can also be a problem - I have seen green plastic yardage markers which are below fairway height and they are not distracting.  Again, this is a pace of play issue.

As far as tee markers go, my view is that if you must have them, then make them as simple as possible.  Flat markers lying on the ground are the best as the player should not be prevented from standing outside the markers to play his shot.

Again, I don't advocate this for every course - just for THIS ONE, hearkening back to Mackenzie's time, I have to believe that darn near all golfers would get it, and the slow play issues would not occur.  The course would also just need to do some simple education of visitors in order to achieve this as well.  

Sure one humorless golfer could screw things up; but heck that can occur at even the best-marked golf courses.

In the end I think the good outweighs the bad, at this wonderful old golf course.

TH