Pebble Beach No. 8- One of the best second shots in golf

[Bob_Huntley]

I played Pebble Beach a few days ago and came to the eighth hole. Many years ago it was a three wood off the tee and a five or six iron to the the green. Now it is a a full driver and three wood. No matter, with a great deal of  luck I reached the green. The trouble was, that I was above the hole, a troublesome proposition.

Is there a hole that gives one such an opportunity for par with a brilliant shot and takes it away with an impossible putt?


Bob

[David Stamm]

Maybe a few holes later, Bob, at 13. Funny how the same man did both greens. But I agree, if you are above the hole with a back pin on 8, well, good luck stopping it. And if you go long and have to chip, scary shot. It's one of my all-time favs, but that's not exactly going out on a limb.

[PThomas]

sounds like you are playing better than the last time we communicated Bob!

your post brought back memories of the 92 Open..I think it was Kite who was just on the back of 8, and I remember him trying to barely just nudge the ball back onto the green.....

[TEPaul]

Bob:

I don't remember any impossible putts on #8 but that second shot is probably one of the most dramatic in every way in golf.

I remember that some good golf writer said that if that hazard on the second shot was artificial and created by man that the hole would be roundly criticized by many for all eternity but because that hazard is natural it's one of the great golf holes and certainly one of the great second shots in golf.

I just can't tell you how important and poignant I think that remark is because I happen to think it's true and I happen to think it just says so much about what so many of us on here think about and talk about.

[PThomas]

tis Mr. Nicklaus' favorite second shot in all of golf

[John Kirk]

Bob,

There are plenty of holes out there which require a brilliant approach shot, only to leave the player with a nearly impossible two putt from above the hole.  Number 3 at Pasatiempo is an example in your neighborhood.  However, number 8 at Pebble Beach is clearly one of the great holes in golf.  I've never heard it criticized on GCA, and that's saying something.

[David Stamm]

Bob,

There are plenty of holes out there which require a brilliant approach shot, only to leave the player with a nearly impossible two putt from above the hole.  Number 3 at Pasatiempo is an example in your neighborhood.  However, number 8 at Pebble Beach is clearly one of the great holes in golf.  I've never heard it criticized on GCA, and that's saying something.

John, that's great example. I was thinking of 8 at Pasa myself. One of the fastest greens from back to front I've ever played. 11 is another where simply hitting the green is not good enough. Of course, these greens were never designed with today's speeds in mind either, 8 at PB included.

[David Ober]

I played Pebble Beach a few days ago and came to the eighth hole. Many years ago it was a three wood off the tee and a five or six iron to the the green. Now it is a a full driver and three wood. No matter, with a great deal of  luck I reached the green. The trouble was, that I was above the hole, a troublesome proposition.

Is there a hole that gives one such an opportunity for par with a brilliant shot and takes it away with an impossible putt?


Bob

You're a member at MPCC and you just played Pebble (which I'm sure you do a couple times a year at least).

I hate you Bob Huntley!!! ;-)

[rchesnut]

I was thinking about #11 at Pasatiempo before I read your post John, that's a great example.  #16 at Pasa creates the opposite (and probably even more unusual) challenge, that is, a very difficult second shot to a green that often presents you with an impossible uphill putt.  

BTW, John, it was good to meet you in the clubhouse at Ballyneal last month...hope to see you there again in the spring.

Rob Chesnut

[Tom_Doak]

I think it's worth a mention that the main reason this "great second shot" has stood the test of time is because the drive forces a lay-up.  If it weren't for the cross hazard, a hole of this length would be a driver and a flip wedge for many players today.  But as Tom P. mentions, if the cross hazard weren't a great natural feature, it wouldn't be considered acceptable architecture.

Incidentally, #11 at Pasatiempo shares the same feature -- the ravine doesn't allow players to hit their normal drive.

[JESII]

Is there a hole that gives one such an opportunity for par with a brilliant shot and takes it away with an impossible putt?

Bob

Dare I ask, Mr. Huntley..."impossible putt"?

[JESII]

Tom Doak,

Do you get push back against using natural landforms to cut short a driving area?

Where have you used them?

[Tom Huckaby]

Pastiempo is littered with holes like this, where an ostensibly great approach can unfortunately leave one screwed.

1 - if pin is front and you go anywhere past it
2 - if you get hung up on right fringe
3 - behind the hole
4 - behind the hole
5 - behind the hole
6 - none
7 - none
8 - anywhere
9 - behind hole
11 - behind hole (although it's a hell of a lot less so post-Doakification)
12- none
13 - none
14 - none
15 - behind hole if pin is far front
16 - anywhere
17 - left of hole
18 - anywhere

And why do we think this is?  Dare we say greens kept too fast for what the contours intend?

Anyway, I don't mean to beat that dead horse again, but as Bob asked the question, it struck me that damn near every hole at Pasa has this feature.

BTW re 11, sure Tiger can't hit his normal drive, but I'd venture to say 99% of all golfers can and should safely hit driver there.  The fact that so many people don't, and leave themselves way too far of a shot over the ravine, is yet another great feature of a great golf hole.

TH

[Mark Smolens]

"one of the best?"  While there are very few absolutes, in golf or in life, it's pretty hard to imagine a better second shot anywhere else isn't it?

[Steve Kline]

The fact that the great natural feature is acceptable and the artificial one wouldn't be sums up so much of what great architecture is and what stands the test of time. Great golf is ultimately a battle against the elements. Using natural land features to their fullest extent is what great architects do - see the previous poster.

[Tom Huckaby]

Is there a hole that gives one such an opportunity for par with a brilliant shot and takes it away with an impossible putt?

Bob

Dare I ask, Mr. Huntley..."impossible putt"?

Impossible to keep anywhere near the hole should the first putt miss - that is, it rolls and rolls and rolls away from the hole due to gravity.  And that first putt, being so fast, is damn tough to get in the hole.

Again, Pasa is littered with these.  PB #8 can hold it's head up nicely in this for sure though.

TH

[JSPayne]

Just some visuals to enhance the thread

[Scott_Burroughs]

and two more:



(nice sun blockage, dude  )

[Dan Kelly]

Bob --

I played the hole once, in 1986. (I say "played" instead of "have played," because Pebble Beach has crossed over into the Unacceptably Expensive category for me. I'll pay an obscene sum for higher education -- but I won't pay it for golf.)

My drive (I always hit the ball low) clipped the aiming stick at the brow of the hill -- and deflected forward and to the right a ways. I really don't know how long the second shot was, but it looked to be at least as long as I could hit a 3-wood. I didn't come to Pebble to lay up on No. 8, so out came the 3-wood -- and I managed to hit possibly the purest 3-wood of my life. It hung out over the ocean, curving in on a slight breeze toward the pin, landed about 3 feet short of the hole and bounded up the green to about 20, 25 feet above the hole.

You know the rest: breathed on the ball, and it ended up 10 (?) feet past the hole. Easy three-putt.

But I'll never forget that 3-wood.

What a hole.

Dan

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Certainly one of the most enjoyable/scary  second shots in golf..especially when followed by the second shots required into holes nine and ten.

In terms of putts following a good second shot...the second at P ine Valley comes to mind in the area of "impossible"

[John Kirk]

That's a deep hazard.

I think what Bob is trying to say is "I hit a great 3 wood onto this small green, and still had an impossible putt."  That's why I chose #3 at Pasatiempo, because it requires such a long precise shot.  Bob's shot at Pebble Beach sounds like it was 180-190 yards.

Tom H.'s description of #8 (at Pasatiempo) is accurate.  No matter how great a shot you hit, you're left with an impossible putt of some sort.  Kind of.  Some putts are worse than others.

[tlavin]

Bob:

I don't remember any impossible putts on #8 but that second shot is probably one of the most dramatic in every way in golf.

I remember that some good golf writer said that if that hazard on the second shot was artificial and created by man that the hole would be roundly criticized by many for all eternity but because that hazard is natural it's one of the great golf holes and certainly one of the great second shots in golf.

I just can't tell you how important and poignant I think that remark is because I happen to think it's true and I happen to think it just says so much about what so many of us on here think about and talk about.

A nominee for the "Top Ten Best Posts Ever" award.

[Jon Spaulding]

PB8 is certainly one of the better "tough 2nd shot/tough putt" holes I've seen. But there is some leniency if we leave below the hole. One of the better up & downs of my life was from behind the green on 8, with a mid-right pin the first time I played it. PB13 is no piece of cake either.....and the only other part of the property worked on by A-Mac.

In the 180-200 yardage range, I would consider a couple of the holes at Crystal Downs to have a higher level of stress on both the iron shot as well as the resultant putt. #'s 9 and 11 come immediately to mind .

[Mike Benham]

Speaking of restorations ...

Although the 8th may be a spectacular hole with a blind uphill drive and risky, and as Bob enjoyed, little reward for heroics second shot, is it a fair hole?  

Ok, skip that, no need to debate fair and unfair but is this hole playing like it was originally designed?  

In the photos above, the bunkers are a considerable distance away from the green surface and is that the original design or as a result of maintenance practices?

This link (Ron Watts - 8th at Pebble Beach) shows a 1952 picture in the Ron Watts Collection where the green looks much bigger ...

Btw, returning the green to its originally shape would not diminish the hole in my opinion.

[Adam Clayman]

Mike, My guess is that the left hillside was not the lush vegetative state it is today. Acting more like a kick plate rather than the sponge it is today.

As for poor ol Bob's contention that the putt was impossible, I do disagree unless the pin was back right (where it never is) or the green was stimping over 10, which is doubtful. That back right area of the green is purported to be slipping into the abyss.

Also, as Mike alludes to, playing short of the green is a prudent play. Shoulda hit the 5 wood.