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George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
How much does process influence/determine outcome?
« on: November 20, 2007, 05:01:50 PM »
A little? A lot? Not at all? Completely?

Can you build a great course just from the topo?

Can you build a great course just by walking the land?

Can you build a great course by having your associates lay the groundwork and tweaking it?

Can you build a great course by designing everything and turning the plans over to a construction firm?

Can you build a great course by using only manual implements?

Can you build a great course by using only heavy equipment?

Please provide insight, backed up by evidence/examples.

 :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How much does process influence/determine outcome?
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2007, 05:31:44 PM »
I think the design process does affect the outcome.  Some of your questions area bout the construction process, which affects it, too.

To answer briefly,

A lot.  The more the sites vary, the more the design PROCESS has to stay the same to take advantage.....
 
No.  I always see things on site that don't show up on topo and some of them turn out to be pretty damn important!

Probably Not, you'll miss something.  Some relationships are better assessed on plan.

Probably, if they are good associates. Its a matter of who has time and passion often as much as its the name on the door.  Think MacKenzie/Australia, many TF, JN and other big shop courses.

No, not without field supervision.  Everyone has a slightly different idea they want to put in the course.  Someone has to direct it and be firm in keeping the vision.

Probably not, but maybe on a "perfect site" and with an owner who doesn't care when it gets done.

Probably not. I am still surprised at how much hand work is necessary to finish a golf course.....

As to examples I don't have the time, so you'll have to trust me! :)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How much does process influence/determine outcome?
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2007, 05:36:31 PM »
Can you build a great course just from the topo?

Can you build a great course just by walking the land?

Can you build a great course by having your associates lay the groundwork and tweaking it?

Can you build a great course by designing everything and turning the plans over to a construction firm?

Can you build a great course by using only manual implements?

Can you build a great course by using only heavy equipment?

Please provide insight, backed up by evidence/examples.

 :)

In other words:

Can you build it with a map?
Would you build it from your lap?
Should you build it as it's planned?
Must you build it all by hand?
Can you hand it off and run --
Or use dozers by the ton?

Tell us, archies, pro and am!
Thank you, thank you,
                   Dan-I-Am

(George-He-Is didn't rhyme.)

"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How much does process influence/determine outcome?
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2007, 05:42:32 PM »
Slow day at the Pioneer Press, I presume? ;)

Not bad on the spur of the moment, though!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How much does process influence/determine outcome?
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2007, 05:44:35 PM »
Can you build it with a map?
Would you build it from your lap?
Should you build it as it's planned?
Must you build it all by hand?
Can you hand it off and run --
Or use dozers by the ton?

Tell us, archies, pro and am!
Thank you, thank you,
                   Dan-I-Am

Who do you think you are?

Grantland Rice?

Ken
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How much does process influence/determine outcome?
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2007, 05:55:20 PM »
In other words:

Can you build it with a map?
Would you build it from your lap?
Should you build it as it's planned?
Must you build it all by hand?
Can you hand it off and run --
Or use dozers by the ton?

Tell us, archies, pro and am!
Thank you, thank you,
                   Dan-I-Am

(George-He-Is didn't rhyme.)

Another sign that winter has descended on the Twin Cities.
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How much does process influence/determine outcome?
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2007, 11:53:50 AM »
Bumped -- to give these questions their well-deserved chance to recover from my inadvertent threadjacking.

Grantland Seuss
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How much does process influence/determine outcome?
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2007, 03:11:56 PM »
Thanks for the thoughtful, if brief, answer, Jeff.

Just a warning to the archies out there - I'll be bumping this again post-Thanksgiving. Ruminate if you can.

 :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How much does process influence/determine outcome?
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2007, 11:44:49 AM »
Apologies for the self-bump, but I think this is a topic worth exploring.

For the architects:

Do you approach all projects in the same manner (topo routing first, walk next, or maybe walk it then look at the topo, etc)? If so, can you share it? If not, how do they differ?

In projects where you perhaps worked in a different manner than you're normally accustomed to, were there recognizable differences that led you to reflect on your process?
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

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