[Walt_Cutshall]

Why do so many people believe that a designer would not see any problems or weaknesses in his original design? Is there something sacred about the original design implementation of a golf course where even the original architect doesn't have the right to make what he or she sees as improvements?

I don't have a problem with the original green, BTW, but I can see how you might want to make more hole locations available.

[Tom Huckaby]

I for one could care less about keeping things original.  Hell those who own courses will do what they want to do.  More power to them.

I just see a golf hole that was very very unique, and one that I loved as it was.  If it really is being changed just because too many people found it unfair or too difficult or whatever, well that to me is sad.

But of course my opinion doesn't mean jack shit and it if Coore wants to change it, then I also trust he knows what he's doing!

I just wonder if he wants to change it... and if so, why....

TH

[Dan Kelly]

I'm still wondering how this will change the play of the hole. Any thoughts, Bandonites?

[Tim Pitner]

I'm still wondering how this will change the play of the hole. Any thoughts, Bandonites?

Downwind, it may encourage players to hit driver left of the green, assuming that chips from the left side will no longer be as difficult.  

[Tom Huckaby]

I'm still wondering how this will change the play of the hole. Any thoughts, Bandonites?

Seems to me it's going to make it a LOT easier... if the pin is in this new added area, anyway. And even when it's not, well.. flattening that area takes a lot of the terror out of chips from the front left.. I swear I had that once and I was actively praying to get down in less than 4... from five yards off the green.... Seems to me that much of the terror and necessity for prayer is being removed.

But it's impossible to tell until one sees it, obviously.

TH

[Dan Kelly]

Thanks, gents.

I still don't GET this hole.

You're screwed if you drive it to the right. You're saying your prayers if you're short left. You're dead if you're over.

I've just reread Ran's description ("14th hole, 325 yards; Perhaps the most merciless hole that Coore & Crenshaw have ever designed, the student of architecture (more so than the golfer!) delights in seeing them push the design envelope with this sliver of a green complex. Especially on a public access course, one might have thought that they could have tempered its severity one way or another. Perhaps the green could have been bigger than its 4,000 square feet, much of which does not readily afford usable hole locations. Perhaps the bunkers right didn’t need to be so deep or the fall-off over so abrupt. Maybe the chipping area left could have been made more conducive to getting the ball up and down. The fact that they stayed the course speaks well as to how Keiser and Coore & Crenshaw interacted. Like the 8th at Pine Valley Golf Club, there is simply no way to insure one gets a par, no matter how defensively or ‘smart’ one plays the hole. The golfer simply must execute a very crisp wedge shot or the resulting score could be anything. Indeed, it would be interesting to compare the scoring average of the 14th here and the 8th at PVGC during a four day stroke event: no telling which would be higher. Thanks to its unique green complex seemingly clinging to the side of the hill, both Ben Crenshaw and Mike Keiser volunteer this as their favorite hole on the course; few golfers who have just tripled it will tend to agree!"), and I still don't see how one is best advised to play the hole.

Maybe it's just that nobody has described the hole well enough ... yet.

I'm not criticizing the hole, obviously. I haven't played it! If/when I do, it might be my favorite hole at the resort!

I am sorry that I won't get the chance to play it as the architects intended it.

[Tom Huckaby]

Dan:

I actually think you're reading it correctly, with one correction - the chip from short left is very very tough FOR SUCH A SHORT CHIP... the approach from the left is actually far far easier than that from below right.

But the main thing (to me) is:  it's a tiny short hole that plays like an absolute stone bitch.  There really is no easy way to do it; whichever way one attempts is going to require at least one GREAT shot to give hope for a birdie... and you damn well better hit at least one very good shot to have a hope for a par.

All this at 325 from the tips, severely downhill.

There's no huge mystery to the hole; playing right leaves very very very difficult approach; playing left leaves an easier one, but at much greater risk off the tee.  Either side can yield disaster one way or the other.  There really IS no one best way to play the hole.

I find this very very cool.

But many don't like it.

I find THAT very very cool.

TH

[Dan Kelly]

Well, it sounds great to me.

So, if one were to drive it right, a smart play might be to play intentionally short left?

[Eric Olsen]

Short left is indeed the shot to play on your approach to the current green, and then pray for an up and down par or be absolutely happy with a bogey.  

[David_Elvins]

In fact, of all tee shots witnessed hit to the lower right fairway during a north to south wind (again probably hundreds), I've seen maybe one par, while with a south to north wind but a handful of pars.  Essentially all the eagles, birdies and pars come with tee shots to the upper left fairway, or to the green.

A really interesting perspective there.  How hard is it to hold the left side of the fairway?

Excuse my quick and dirty photoshop but do you think the hole would be considered more "fair" if the right half of the fairway wasnt there?  

[Tom Huckaby]

Well, it sounds great to me.

So, if one were to drive it right, a smart play might be to play intentionally short left?

YES!
I've done exactly that... from less than 100 yards in.  Think about that for a moment... a wedge shot that one intentionally plays away from the green.

And David - that might make it more "fair" but it would also take away any and all thought that goes into the tee shot.  I do think that one of the things that makes the hole so cool is the damned if you do, damned if you don't feeling you have on the tee... but with all that huge wide fairway staring at you, so you don't really believe it... make that all rough and there's no more conundrum.

TH

[David_Elvins]

And David - that might make it more "fair" but it would also take away any and all thought that goes into the tee shot.  I do think that one of the things that makes the hole so cool is the damned if you do, damned if you don't feeling you have on the tee... but with all that huge wide fairway staring at you, so you don't really believe it... make that all rough and there's no more conundrum.

TH

100% agree, Tom.  I am wondering how much of the criticism is to do with expectation.  ie.  players expect to be able to hold the green with a wedge, even when played from 50 yards right of the ideal spot?  Of course I haven't played the hole and have no idea how easy it is to stop the ball on the left upper part of the fairway or how much easier that approach shot is.  

[Mike_Cirba]

I've never played it but after reading multiple descriptions, I'm quite sure I would love it and am feeling sorry they've bent to common perceptions of fairness in deciding to change it.   I've been one of those people who have given some criticism of C&C wishing they would push the envelope a little more.

Well, it seems that they have done exactly that and I wish it had been better accepted.

[Dan Kelly]

And David - that might make it more "fair" but it would also take away any and all thought that goes into the tee shot.  I do think that one of the things that makes the hole so cool is the damned if you do, damned if you don't feeling you have on the tee... but with all that huge wide fairway staring at you, so you don't really believe it... make that all rough and there's no more conundrum.

What's the conundrum now?

I haven't heard anyone dispute that the left side of the fairway is THE place to be.

So: What thought goes into the tee shot now -- beyond "Hit it down the left side, you dingbat!" (You can see that my mental game isn't always terribly strong.)

[John Kavanaugh]

I have played the hole twice and held the green twice because I hit great drives and average wedges.  Is there any way possible that the hole will not end up less exciting because of this work?  They are taking away one of the few shots in golf where really challenging a hazard (woods) gives a huge advantage.  The golfing public can not handle that kind of real strategic choice.

I can only see this meaning that Bandon IV is going to be watered down Raynor.  Watnor.

[Michael Dugger]

I have played the hole twice and held the green twice because I hit great drives and average wedges.  Is there any way possible that the hole will not end up less exciting because of this work?  They are taking away one of the few shots in golf where really challenging a hazard (woods) gives a huge advantage.  The golfing public can not handle that kind of real strategic choice.

I can only see this meaning that Bandon IV is going to be watered down Raynor.  Watnor.

More fodder......

And an additional cheap shot at Doak et al to boot.

Nice post

[Tim Bert]

I hate to read that these changes are being made as well.  I have no doubt that a good golf hole will remain, but I haven't found this hole to be unfair.

I've played or seen the hole played 12 times - 3 rounds by 4 players.  The best in the group was a 4-5 handicap and the other three of us were in the 10-15 range each time we played.  Each time, the hole played downwind, varying from moderate (10mph) to extreme (30-35 mph).

Each of the four of us made at least one par (the lowest handicapper had one birdie as well.)  Each of the four of us made at least one double bogey as well (no one made worse than triple.)

It hasn't been a round-stopper (there are plenty of those at Bandon Trails for us.)  We've missed long, left, and right.

Sure enough, it is one heck of a tough 325 yard par 4, but I think the unfair label on this one can only come from a really low handicapper that thinks he is entitled to a par on every short par 4.

I've found the #6 and #16 greens at PD to be equally difficult when it comes to stopping approaches in the downwind conditions.

Does anyone know the square footage of #6 at PD vs. #14 at BT?  It seems like stopping the shot on the thin slice of #6 when playing from the left presents an equal challenge to stopping a shot from the right on #14.  Of course, that's probably the point!  

Hopefully the changes won't be too dramatic.  

[John Kavanaugh]

It has been well documented that #14 at Bandon Trails is my favorite hole at my favorite course at my favorite resort.  I think I have the right to question the motives and how this will play out in the future of public access courses.  I'm just plain sick of every aspect of my life from my childrens schools to my selected forms of entertainment being softened for those who refuse to earn anything in their lives.   This is not just a golf hole...not to me.

[Steve Kline]

I played the hole twice in the Mid-Am - one practice round, one tournament round. In the practice round it was down wind and I tried to drive the green. Ended up about pin high right of the green. Flopped it over the bunker, hit the pin, rolled all the way to the left side and rolled back down the slope to about 20 feet. Two putted for my four. In the tournament the hole was dead into the wind. I hit 3 iron to lay up and was in the center of the fairway, maybe slightly left of center, about 100 yards away. Figured it was playing 125 with the hill and wind. Hit a wedge to 15 feet and made par.

I for one think it is a tremendous hole. Just because a hole is short doesn't mean it shouldn't be very, very difficult to par. You really must execute to make a par on this hole.  It stinks they are changing it.

[CHrisB]

What's the conundrum now?

I haven't heard anyone dispute that the left side of the fairway is THE place to be.

So: What thought goes into the tee shot now -- beyond "Hit it down the left side, you dingbat!" (You can see that my mental game isn't always terribly strong.)

Dan,
The fairway slopes from high left to low right, so it's not as simple as "hit it down the left". In fact, it takes a very precise tee shot to keep it up on the left side, because anything landing in the center will roll down to the right. So (for the right-handed player) it's either hit a hard draw into the left 1/3 of the fairway, or challenge the trees on the left with a straighter shot, all from an elevated tee with the wind usually dead against or dead downwind. When there's 70 yards of fairway staring at you, it can be hard to aim for the left 20-25 (some of which is obscured from the tee) when the penalty for missing left is a pitch-out. The result is that player after player finishes on the lower right side, leaving the tough wedge shot to a tiny target.

So it's a case of strategy (of shot selection) layered upon strategy (of where you'd like to place your tee shot), meaning it's not enough to just think about where you'd like to hit it, but also what type of shot you should try to hit to get it there. And this is after making the initial decision whether to go for the green or lay back (and if so, how far back).

I love the hole as is, and I hope/trust that any modification will preserve the options (or maybe even introduce an interesting new option) and not just be a "dumbing down" of the hole.

[Mike_Cirba]

It has been well documented that #14 at Bandon Trails is my favorite hole at my favorite course at my favorite resort.  I think I have the right to question the motives and how this will play out in the future of public access courses.  I'm just plain sick of every aspect of my life from my childrens schools to my selected forms of entertainment being softened for those who refuse to earn anything in their lives.   This is not just a golf hole...not to me.

John,

I completely and wholeheartedly agree with you.   I think golf should be an adventure, and a difficult, challenging one at that.  

As a public course golfer my entire life, I always felt completely patronized when I heard golf course architects talk about how they had to make a green bigger because it had to accommodate public play, or how they had to eliminate blind shots, or shots that required multiple playings to fully understand.

I look at that hole and think it may be among the very top holes I've ever seen from C&C, if not the best.

It exemplifies everything I admire in golf course architecture, and it is the diametric opposite of modern day "concave" design...you literally couldn't find a more "convex" type hole than this one.

I'm surprised that those who appreciate this type of design haven't chained themselves to the left side of the green to prevent the coming of the bulldozers.

[John Kavanaugh]

I'm surprised that those who appreciate this type of design haven't chained themselves to the left side of the green to prevent the coming of the bulldozers.

Those that appreciate this type of design probably sold them the bulldozers.  You ever met a bulldozer salesman?

[Mike_Cirba]

John,

Frankly, I'm very surprised by the lack of opposition expressed in here about this proposed change.  

I willing to bet that if an outside architect had proposed this change, or had been hired to perform the work, that the GCA server would have crashed already from overheating.  

Again, I've never played the hole so I may be talking out of my rear, but I have a hunch that something pretty unique to US golf is about to meet the dustbin of history.

[John Kavanaugh]

Mike,

It is in bad taste to say anything bad about the Bandon Resort.  Bill Coore is also one of the great men in golf.  Mike Keiser is a true gentleman that has given us a great gift.  Today I thought of calling Bandon an architectural incubator.  Brad Klein, George Bahto, Doak and others are working on Bandon IV.  I would have kept my mouth shut myself if I wasn't me.  This is a day it hurts to be me.  I wish it hadn't happened.  I wish all the petty critics weren't getting their day.  I wish I had never played the hole so I didn't know.  It is like a pet dying.  I never bought another dog after I lost the last one because the pain was too much.  Our new golden age of public access greatness is dead.  

[Mike_Cirba]

John,

While I don't view this in quite the same dire terms you do, I tend to think of Bandon as well as a combination architectural experimental/proving ground.

It therefore seems a shame to hear that they had to pull the parachute on this singularly unique hole rather than letting it's stature fall or rise on merit and lore over time.

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