What is the ULTIMATE TEST ?

« **on:** August 07, 2002, 05:02:53 PM »

Is the ULTIMATE TEST for a golf course that it be fun to play yet challenging for every level of golfer ?

What courses meet that test ??

NGLA
GCGC
PV
ANGC
Maidstone
Seminole
The Creek

Are some that come to mind for me.

« **Reply #1 on:** August 07, 2002, 05:38:33 PM »

I don't have anything to add to your list, but the first thing that came to mind about "Ultimate Test" was a human opponant. Nothing beats winning the match, no matter the course. Also, and not meaning this to be derogatory towards anyones game, but isn't there a level of play that need not be addressed as to fun and challenge? I see so many people attempting the game of golf that play the equivalant to throwing a gutter ball every time when bowling. What level of scoring just makes the course meaningless?

Sorry to go off topic,

Joe

« **Reply #2 on:** August 07, 2002, 06:13:09 PM »

For me,
the Old Course and Pinehurst #2 can be added to that list, although there are some who would argue that it is not fun to see your ball rolling off the edges of the greens at #2.

« **Reply #3 on:** August 07, 2002, 06:29:57 PM »

Cypress Point falls into this category, unless resistance to scoring is heavily weighted. In calm, soft conditions it can be had. To me it is the perfect member's course. It is great fun, requiring well played shots, and offering a lot of options. I am sure it can be very difficult when it is firmed-up and the wind blows. Of course, the scenery and surroundings are without peer. And the 18th hole adds enough quirk and imperfection that makes the course that much more natural and real.

Sand Hills may be an ultimate test, though I imagine that it can be brutal when the wind blows. The number of forced carries, blind and semi-blind shots, perched greens, and severity of the bunkers may make it too hard for a large majority of golfers. I am afraid that a lot of people wouldn't get it.

« **Reply #4 on:** August 07, 2002, 06:43:36 PM »

Shinnecock -

Challenges the best players in the world from those brutal Open tees and is a blast to play from the members tees.

« **Reply #5 on:** August 07, 2002, 07:00:00 PM »

Going par, par on 17 & 18 when I very very rarely have a chance to break 80.

« **Reply #6 on:** August 07, 2002, 07:06:45 PM »

Pat:

In your post question you said; (a challenge for) ..."Every level of golfer". Obviously that incorporates a lot.

If you ask me it would be a course that can definitely challenge the tour pro and still be playbable for the member and handicap golfer--albeit at a higher score than a normal, strictly, let's say, "member's course" (that do not remotely challenge a tour caliber player).

I would give you a course that is basically right there in front of you, a course that really doesn't give any golfer any "tricky business", no real old fashioned "not now popular quirk", a course that incorporates natural and variable elements like the wind etc.

I would also add in the suggestion of this course as possibly the "ultimate test" (for everyone) that in its 70 year history it's virtually unchanged architecturally.

This course, is, of course, Shinnecock, both a perenial member favorite and very much on the USGA's modern and future Open rota (without the need for the perennial Open redesign or "upgrading").

Personally, I feel that Shinnecock in the next 2-4 years is going to eclipse both neck and neck contenders for #1 in the world, PV and PB and hit the top of the list!

And when it does, most everyone is going to say: "Oh my God, this is a no brainer, this golf course is the "ULTIMATE TEST" that's still very much playable for everyone !"

« **Reply #7 on:** August 07, 2002, 07:27:34 PM »

Must adds:

USA:
Prairie Dunes
Pacific Dunes
Whistling Straights
Somerset Hills
Friar's Head
The Country Club
Riveria
SFGC
and on...and on..

Over the Small Paond

Cruden Bay...MC Escher had a hand in this one!
Royal Dornoch....near a trailer park...must be good
Royal Portrush....
Royal Aberdeen
Westward Ho!
Ballybunion
Old Head
Tralee

Just a few

And over the BIG Pond:

#1 Fun
Royal Melbourne...any 18
Kingston Heath...real fun
Metropolitan
New South Wales

Ahhhh..my hand gets tired

« **Reply #8 on:** August 07, 2002, 08:54:55 PM »

The ULTIMATE tests are links: all the usual suspects.

No other golf offers the variety/randomness day to day.

The old guys knew this, no matter what the bloody rankings say today!

« **Reply #9 on:** August 08, 2002, 12:13:47 AM »

The first time I read your question, I read it as, "what golf courses provide the ultimate test of golf?" After reading it again, it seems you are asking a slightly different question, more along the lines of the ultimate measure of a golf course's success? Maybe I am splitting hairs here, or don't quite get it, but since they are completely different questions with completely different answers, I will address each and hope that one of them is pertinent to this thread.

For me the ultimate test of golf has got to be classic links golf. Lots of strategy and lots of variety both within the round and from round to round. Minimal water hazards, maximum recoverability opportunities. All aspects of the game are tested. The American obsession with stroke play, fairness and perfect conditioning tends to water down the purity of the ultimate golfing test. Many courses to choose from in Scotland and Ireland. Over here, Pinehurst and Shinnecock come to mind as close to the spirit.

Reading your question more literally, "is the ultimate test for a golf course that it be fun to play yet challenging for every level of golfer?" From a golf course architects standpoint, I would say that the ultimate test is that the golf course be fun to play for every level of golfer, and that it challenges those that want to be challenged commensurate with their level of play. Basically I am agreeing with you, just elaborating a bit. I think one of the biggest challenges for an architect is to create enough challenge and interest for the more accomplished players while still creating a fun environment and modest challenges for the less accomplished players. Doing one or the other is relatively simple. Doing both is what creates excellence. The best golf courses stand the test of time because golfers of all abilities never tire of playing them, and I think that can be attributed to creating the right balance of challenge, variety and fun for all golfers. The ultimate test or measure of success is that the golf course is respected by the best players and enjoyed by all players.

« **Reply #10 on:** August 08, 2002, 04:54:06 AM »

Patrick:

To me, the ULTIMATE TEST is Carnoustie. Big and bad, it challenges you and can beat you up on very nearly every shot. Plus, the closing 3 holes can be as grueling as any finishers in the game of golf.

« **Reply #11 on:** August 08, 2002, 05:21:06 AM »

Pat:

I have to agree with Paul Richards, Carnoustie is the biggest test I've ever played. Having done so on 5 different occasions I have experienced a wide range of weather, but even in the most benign of conditions, the golf course is unrelenting. And even more so than what Paul says, the last 5 holes, not just 3, can destroy a round in a heartbeat.

Here in the US, I had the chance to play Seminole last year, and I was impressed beyond belief at its subtleties. Everything sits before you, and you can get from here to there, but THOSE GREENS!!!!!! They Stimped at 13 the day I played. Now that will test your patience.

« **Reply #12 on:** August 08, 2002, 07:14:47 AM »

I believe what Pat is asking is not what is the most difficult course but what course is as difficult as a scratch would want but still playable for a bogey golfer. Carnoustie wins big time in the first part, but set a bogey golfer lose with the rough high and he might never finish.

Shinnecock does seem to be the poster child for this - I truly believe it would be great fun from the up tees and it goes without saying it's as brutal as any course on earth from the tips.

NGLA is said to fail in the "testing the scratch player" category, and I can believe that... so althought it might be the most fun course on earth (Cypress competes there), just like Cypress it's not gonna meet this definition cuz it doesn't have both components...

Let me echo then that one to compete with Shinnecock is indeed Sand Hills. I called it Shinnecock from the tips, NGLA from up a set... meaning it's brutal from the back, doable and great fun from up. I'd say it wins an ultimate test contest, per Pat's definition.

TH

« **Reply #13 on:** August 08, 2002, 07:22:43 AM »

Doesn't PV fail this particular question because it is so difficult for higher handicappers to enjoy? One might say the other ultimate test is for a golf course to be without a weak hole, and PV definitely passes that one.

« **Reply #14 on:** August 08, 2002, 07:24:58 AM »

I'll second Cruden Bay. The golf course is tons of fun for all levels of golfers, but it is clearly not a pushover. (especially with some wind) There are enough demanding shots (approach on 7, #4) along with blind-guess shots (approach on #14, #15) that keeps everyone interested and happy. You can only smile when someone bounces one off the side of the bowl that the green sits in on #15 and gets it closer than a well struck shot to the center of the green.

I think Doak mentions this course in his book as being fun for all levels of players. He mentioned Lahinch as well, although I don't know if it still holds true given the changes to the golf course. (I saw the course before the changes).

« **Reply #15 on:** August 08, 2002, 07:26:49 AM »

Jeff: Not having seen PV, but based on what others say, yes, PV would fail this definition exactly as you say.

It's a separate issue as to exactly what this measures... does a golf course HAVE TO have both components to be truly great? I'd say it if doesn't - like Pine Valley - it better have a LOT of other great attributes to measure favorably to courses that DO have both... I gather PV does in spades... but does Carnoustie, for example?

TH

« **Reply #16 on:** August 08, 2002, 08:57:16 AM »

Tom Huckaby:

In your context of scratch and bogey golfers, perhaps the best test I've ever played is Riviera.

As long as the Kikuyu is not too long, and it's not for the members, the golf course offers a wonderful challenge to everyone from the members tees.

« **Reply #17 on:** August 08, 2002, 09:20:19 AM »

Bob - well, this is Pat's concept, I'm just trying to get a good sense of it, as it is very interesting to me... and good call re Riviera in any case. That meets it most definitely I'd say.

TH

« **Reply #18 on:** August 08, 2002, 12:40:10 PM »

Dave,

Peter Jans is actually a tough course. Every time I go out there, I expect to shoot 5 or 6 under but I never come close. Those rock hard, tiny greens kill me every time.

« **Reply #19 on:** August 08, 2002, 02:57:27 PM »

Tom Huckaby,

Since Pebble Beach, Winged Foot, Baltusrol and others convert some of their par 5's to par 4's, you have to give NGLA that option as well.

Converting #'s 5, 7, and 18 to par 4's and bringing par to 70 would provide a test for the better players, so I would keep
NGLA in the mix.

The gist of my thread is the combination of challenge and FUN for every level of player (big caveat here, I'm not talking about 24-36-45 handicaps) Let's narrow it to + to 18 for this question.

I don't think that excludes PV.

« **Reply #20 on:** August 08, 2002, 03:03:00 PM »

Very well, Patrick. I get it. So yes, put NGLA at par 70 and the challenge is there and then heck yeah it belongs, in a relative to par sense... And as for PV, I'll take your word for it - never scared those gates, that's for sure.

TH

« **Reply #21 on:** August 08, 2002, 03:37:54 PM »

Mr Hancock is correct. The ultimate test is defeating your opponent on any course. A 4 foot putt on #18 with $$ and pride riding in the balance is what seperates the men from the boys.

« **Reply #22 on:** August 08, 2002, 03:38:03 PM »

Patrick, you big kleptomaniac!!

The idea of NGLA being a par 70 by making #5, #7 and #18 par 4s was all my idea and you resisted it as a dumb idea for good players like an intransigient mule, particularly the prospect of #18 even for touring pros!!

Obviously my ideas are so good and your disagreement with them is so weak that this time my very idea that you resisted, got into your head as your own idea!

Just fess up and admit it was all my idea or my lawyer will need to meet your lawyer on NGLA's 18th tee to discuss how to handle your plagiarism.

« **Reply #23 on:** August 08, 2002, 06:00:56 PM »

TEPaul,

I never claimed authorship, and acknowledge that the idea was all yours.

I did feel that # 18 as a par 4 would cause a lot of weeping and nashing of teeth, and might be excessive.

« **Reply #24 on:** August 08, 2002, 06:54:37 PM »

But Patrick, didn't you know that although almost every architect says that they intend to create golf courses that will accomodate and give tons of fun to all kinds of people, the best of them secretly hope that their holes will cause much weeping and gnashing of teeth, particularly for good players and touring pros?

For most architect's that's their secret desire except for Pete Dye--he's never even tried to keep it a secret!

News:

Patrick_Mucci

Joe Hancock

CHrisB

Lou Duran

Gene Greco

Mike_Sweeney

TEPaul

Steve Lapper

Paul_Turner

Art_Schaupeter

Paul Richards

Bob_Farrell

THuckaby2

Jeff_Lewis

Dan Grossman

THuckaby2

Bob_Farrell

THuckaby2

DaveEgan

Patrick_Mucci

THuckaby2

DriverKing

TEPaul

Patrick_Mucci

TEPaul

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