A Routing Exercise for Wanna-be Architects

[Jason Topp]

I like your 10th.  I assume the squiggles on the inside of the dogleg is a mound to discourage a direct attack at the green.

I don't think that your 2nd would work.  That's someone's back yard you'd be directing corporate tournament hackers across on the drive.  Players would just as likely end up aiming at (and maybe hitting) the third tee.

Thanks - yes -

10.  I meant it as a big artificial mound or else just broken ground to serve that purpose.

2.  You are probably right.  I was thinking of a road hole like tee shot with a bailout left that results in an almost impossible pitch to a green sloping away.  I tried to get 3 tee 300 yards away but cannot remember if I measured it.

[Garland Bayley]

Michael, Garland,

You guys win the artistic award so far.  Nice presentation.

One lesson learned so far is that routing without long walks between holes might be hard.  Do you suppose it would be harder to route a course where the tee needed to be within say 25 yards of the preceding green like the old Scottish courses had?

Since I am an amateur doing this for the first time, and since it had been mentioned earlier, I tried to imagine what people would think was a safe placement of tees and located them for what seemed to be reasonable safety. In reality, I think most of my tees could be moved closer to the previous green. Another factor, is the common use of multiple tees on modern courses. In my rough draft there are 3 sets of tees on each hole, but I did not take time to transfer them to the computer drawing as I was trying to get it done and up on the thread. Instead you see the furthest back tees for each hole except the par 3 over water which I drew the extra two tees. The one problem I had was the connection from 16 to 17. I actually wanted to continue 15 along the water and have 16 come back on the other side, but that would require crossing 15 fairway to get to 17 tee. I even thought of putting in a walking tunnel to allow that to happen safely.

[Garland Bayley]

...Not sure about the great bulb of fairway off the tee - a lot of fairway to maintain that will get little play.

Novice drawer. I don't know how to move a line once drawn. The bulb is to be well off the tee near the pinch point.

Not sure about shutes for public and corporate hacker play.

My impression is that the trees are not of significant height. Also, the tee is up to 20 ft higher than the landing area. Thoughts were to adjust trees to reasonable width for potential players keeping in mind that some off-line shots may carry over the trees because of the elevation change.

Yes, but theirs was on the left side of a par 5.  Of course, you're on the wrong side of the ball aren't you, so it works out for you.

Mine is beneficial to the righty slicer. All he has to do is aim down the left fairway and his slice takes him to optimal position in the alley.

...Obviously you're not a lawyer

You mean thankfully don't you?

[Brian Phillips]

Garland,

How do you get from 16 to 17 safely?

Brian

[Norbert P]

What do ya think?

 I think all it needs is some rail car sheds to the right of 18 (off property) with a road placed hard to the back right of the green with a mean collection pot bunker at front left.

[Garland Bayley]

Garland,

How do you get from 16 to 17 safely?

Brian

Did I forget to draw the floating bridge in the picture? Must have drawn it black on black so you can't see it.

If they don't want to build the low tech floating dock type of conveyance, then they will just have to depend on people on 15 being polite enough not to hit into players making the traversal. Since you would think that players would be laying back from the water, the danger would be minimal.

The obvious solution would be to move 15 tee and cut some woods, but I wouldn't want to be accused of doing anything obvious.

[Bryan Izatt]

Garland,

Yes, I meant thankfully about the lawyer thing.

Don't let the nit-pickers get you down on your first design commission.  Perhaps a causeway instead of a floating bridge.  Damn the minimalists/naturalists.    

Re the walking tunnel concept - I doubt that'd work.  The water table is kind of close to the surface on this property.  Re the trees and shute concept - the trees are mature, maybe 30 to 50 feet tall.  These things of course would be obvious with a walking of the site, so no crticism here.

For your alternate routing of 15 and 16, perhaps you could consider a crossing hole for 16.  Add a little quirk factor (now that thankfully you are not a lawyer).

This routing stuff is not so easy.

[Garland Bayley]

Bryan,

I figured as much about the walking tunnel. That's why I went to the fishing dock concept.

After all, what can you expect from a couple of hours of routing effort? If I worked it as much a Bill Coore, I am sure it would be vastly different.

[Jay Flemma]

Guys, did we ever get that link working that had the topo map?  Some of those look really interesting!  You have some cool holes Garland.

[Garland Bayley]

Guys, did we ever get that link working that had the topo map?  Some of those look really interesting!  You have some cool holes Garland.

Thank you Jay,

But, as you well know, I am no Pete Dye.

[Brian Laurent]

Brian L,

I can see the marketing literature now - featuring the 16th. Good use of the stream on 18.

Thanks Garland!  16 is where I started...wanted to find a nice hole to wrap around that pond.  18 I was hoping to put in a double fairway creating some options on both sides of the stream, couldn't seem to make it fit on this attempt.  Hopefully, with some free time over the holiday weekend, I may take another crack at it.  

[Chris_Baynham]

Guys, I have a design for this property,but I need to find out how to post photos on the site.

Can anyone help ?

[Garland Bayley]

Chris,

If you already have the photos online, then just push quote on a message that has a photo and you will see how it is done. Mimic that. If you don't have them online, you have to get them online. We use photobucket.com and flickr.com

[Bryan Izatt]

Chris,

As Garland says, you need to get an account at Photbucket or some such hosting site.  The accounts are free and relatively easy to use.  Upload the picture from your computer to the hosting site.  Each picture you upload will have a URL or "direct link" or some such address associated with the picture.  Copy that address with CTRL-C and paste it between in your posting on GCA.  Press the preview button on your post and it should display.  The syntax is described under the "?help" button, then "posting" button at the top of the GCA page.  Good luck.

[Chris_Baynham]

Thanks for the help guys,





Since property is flat - ponds were added for drainage and irrigation storage.

What do ya think?

[Garland Bayley]

Chris,

In the recent T&L Golf magazine article about Rustic Canyon, Geoff Shackelford was quoted something to the effect asking, "when in America did we forget that golf is supposed to be fun?" Adding ponds to the land IMHO makes the course no fun. Of course, if you have read many of my postings here, you would recognize that I am a high handicapper, so pond avoidance is a problem for me. Consider the difference between a golf hole that has a stream running along side it and a golf hole that has a pond running along side of it. If the golfer misses to that side, and there is a pond there, he goes in it 100% of the time and gets a bad feeling from the time the ball heads that way on. If there is a stream there, he goes in it perhaps 15% of the time or less. When that ball heads that way he gets the bad feeling, but when it misses the stream the vast majority of the time, it gets replaced with a feeling of elation.

I do like your #4. I think it uses the stream well.
I like the 3 hole loop, 1,2,3 from the clubhouse, the 6 hole loop 4,5,6,7,8,9 from the clubhouse, and of course the 9 hole loops from the clubhouse. I don't like the walk from 13 to 14.

Feel free to lambast my design.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Thanks for the help guys,





Since property is flat - ponds were added for drainage and irrigation storage.

What do ya think?

Do you want me to be honest?

[Tyler Kearns]

Chris,

Your routing features a few sharp doglegs, and they have the inherent problem of creating potentially dangerous situations. Here, No. 6 tee and No. 10 fairway, as people either attempt to shorten the route to the hole or do not hit a long drive, but aim for the green on their next stroke. Another situation to avoid are long walks back to tees, especially against the line of play, in this case No. 17 green to No. 18 tee. The path could be located in the trees for safety sake, but it would feel disjointed. Having the second hole as a one-shotter does pose the potential for an early back-up in the round, and the walk from No. 13 green to No. 14 tee is rather long (it looks like you were trying to save the trees).

I like the use of the stream on No. 4, it has the potential for an excellent short par-four.

Tyler
P.S. This was a first draft, routing a golf course is not easy, and takes a lot of time. Most golf courses go through many different iterations, followed by lots of refinements before a final routing is completed or it is decided to start again from scratch .

[Garland Bayley]

OK Tyler,

Now that you have done Chris's routing, the rest of us demand equal time.

[Chris_Baynham]

Adrian, sure...tell me what you think?

It's not as if the owners or the architect are ever going to see it.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Adrian, sure...tell me what you think?

It's not as if the owners or the architect are ever going to see it.

Ok, im going to be critical but dont take offence and we dont know a number of things because of limited information so i have assumed an anything is possible policy but I would say if I was judging all the routings I have not seen a good one yet. Firstly I think the clubhouse should go somewhere at the top (North) making use of the existing entrance road, there is power there, it faces south and any further use of the road intrudes too much into a relatively small parcel. As for your holes many are dangerous, both to play and in some instances where there are walks. I think you have not made the best of the natural features and in some instances trees would need to be removed that perhaps could stay. Looking at your layout in more detail I think the woods should be used more effectively and your course looks short, why is 14 not longer? The 7th looks 750 yards. I think a par 70 course well balanced course of 6500 yards with a practice ground is very achievable.

[Bryan Izatt]

Chris,

Thanks for taking the plunge.  Routing's not an easy thing in a real life situation, it seems.

From what little that is visible on the ground at the moment, I think that you and the architect are of a mind about the two holes where you have your 8 and 9.  And, also where you have inserted the pond on the east side of the property.  My guess is that they needed some ponds for fill to raise other parts of the course.  Sorry about the ponds Garland, but it may be what the property calls for.

Being a critic is easier that designing - something that should be obvious to the majority around here.  Some thoughts on your design.

I don't see allowance for an access road to the clubhouse in your design.

The 10th might make an interesting boomerang around the pond, but I don't think there is enough room to fit your 11th green in there.  Or, it's going to be very dangerous.

It's a relatively small site, but you've left over space in the NW corner and south of the clubhouse.

But, this is all in fun.  Certainly better than shovelling snow.  How much did Exeter get?

[Bryan Izatt]

Well actually there is no winner, since this was an exercise in having fun.  But to close off the exercise, below is the original aerial and the actual design created for the site by the architect Kevin Holmes.  The course is well on its way to opening next year.

Now, I did look over how the routings developed by other GCAers in the thread compared to the professional architect routings.  I was about to queue the Twilight Zone music when I looked at the routing of Kevin Baynham, he of 7 posts on this site over a year.  The routing was remarkably similar to the finished product.  But when I noticed that he added three lakes, including two boomerang shaped ones, I begin to suspect that despite Chris' statement:

It's not as if the owners or the architect are ever going to see it. 

he might actually be channeling Kevin Holmes.  Or, at least be involved with Kevin's architectural firm or as a sub-contractor.  So, who is Chris Baynham, really?   

In looking over the routing there are some interesting looking holes.  A cape-like green site on the first; a double crossing of a creek on #4; and a horseshoe par 5 around the existing pond on #10.  But, I'm left wondering how the course will go over with the corporate tournament crowd; there appear to be some forced carries  on 4, 5, 10, 13, 14 and 18, and there is a lot of water, mostly on the right side of holes.  I'm guessing this will not be a slicer's paradise.  Guess we'll have to see how it plays on the ground; how penal it turns out to be.

And, I guess Garland, this will not be the course for you.   

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bryan,

This is a great exercise.

Jason, Garland and Adrian should be commended.

If anyone could teach us how to superimpose your design on the aerial I think you'd have more responses..

I'm not fond of the "official routing"

The walk from 13 to 14 seems cumbersome and # 17 green appears to be near the DZ for # 18.

The green to tee walks on some of the holes seem awkward.

With some technical help on overlaying a design on the aerial I think more would participate.

Great thread.

[Bryan Izatt]

Patrick,

I can overlay it, but not until tonight.  Got a tee time to get to now.

I'd agree with your comments.  Do you see any "good" holes there?