[Mark_Fine]

Shadow Creek and Galloway National are probably my two favorite Fazio designs out of the 30 or so that I've seen.  Most I put in the 6 range!  Rare to find a dud (something less than 5) but for the money he spends, they should be that good!

[Mike_Cirba]

A golf course developer recently shared with me that Tom Fazio essentially asks to work with a "blank check", in regards to his designs.  

He promises a "great course", and if money seems to be a concern with the developer, then that's basically not how Fazio likes to be "restrained" in terms of design and construction.

I think that's why he's being held to such a high standard.  As many have mentioned, not many of his courses could be called bad by any stretch, most are good to very good, but it also seems that only a very small handful actually achieve the status of "greatness", irrespective of site and budget.

[Michael_Burrows]

A great course only one other person has named is The Farm Golf Club

www.Thefarmgolfclub.org

pictures on the website did not turn out well

It is the site for the 2006 Senior Amateur and is ranked in the top 100 Modern courses

[TEPaul]

Michael Burrows:

You're right, it's hard to pick up much of anything from those photos.

Hole #5 I might be interested in though if it's the way I think I'm seeing it. It looks like the green has a fairly interesting orientation but most interesting is it looks like it ridges just past center and starts to slope away from the golfer in the back. Is the slope of that green back to front to that ridge and then front to back after the ridge? If so that looks like a fairly simple but interesting piece of architecture and an effective playability!

[Matt_Ward]

Mark Fine said it best. TF has plenty of resources at his disposal and usually gets the first look at the "prime" parcels where developers want golf courses situated. The only person I know of who gets a fair share of dynamic locations is Rees Jones, but TF is definitely at the top of the page with right of first refusal.

The issue I have with TF is that he does have the wherewithal to command more than just what you often see. High quality photo-op holes can only go so far. Many of his designs have that neat buttoned-up look that you have seen time after time. Few courses are edgy, daring -- pushing the envelope in one way or the other.

I always believe TF "settles" for pro forma layouts, that, with few exceptions, follow the same pattern. Basically, it's "if this worked in "x" state, then let's do that here too." Why are there so few unique Fazio designed greens? Why is his bunker pattern and creation for the most part similar? How many of his layouts have complex routings? Clearly, TF has put forward a number of first rate layouts (i.e. Shadow Creek, Wade Hampton, Estancia, to name just three) and nearly all of th eothers have been mentioned by posters on this thread.

Can TF evolve his design thinking into something different or does he just keep cranking out the same type of layout? Going with the "tried and true" method is good business sense since everyone is making mega $$, but from an architectural perspective I see opportunities for long lasting greatness being missed.

[L. Olsen]

Three designs I haven't seen mentioned here, Spring Hill (Orono, MN), Hallbrook Farms (Leawood, KS), and Dallas National represent some difficult golf for a 'cookie cutter' designer.

Spring Hill's slope is 153, Hallbrook's 151, and the newest Dallas National was just rated at 155.  I know that difficult doesn't mean great, but does anyone know of another designer with three courses sloped this high?

[Tim Weiman]

Matt Ward:

From a golf architecture point of view, Sand Ridge has two characteristics which usually grab people’s attention: aesthetics and conditioning.  Ron Whitten aptly called the presentation “majestic”.  Indeed, the whole scene around the wetlands can be pretty awesome, especially in the fall.  As for conditioning, John Zimmers put it this way:  “When I took the Oakmont job they asked if I could bring Oakmont up to Sand Ridge’s standards.  I told them that would be difficult to do.”

But, for students of golf architecture that stuff doesn’t hold much interest.  More noteworthy, is how deceiving the course can be.  My biggest surprise is how many people come away thinking the course is too difficult.  Given the absence of any “tight” or “intimidating” holes, I never imagined people coming to this conclusion when the course was under construction.

What makes it so?  Why did a local publication recently select Sand Ridge as the area’s toughest course?  

The primary reason is the blue grass rough, what John McMillan called “Chinese water torture”.  It tends to grind on people, gradually undermine their confidence and lead to surprisingly high scores.   In short, the premium Sand Ridge places on accuracy goes way beyond what one might think playing the course a couple times.

Deception can also be found on the greens at Sand Ridge.  They are far more difficult to putt than impressive to look at.  No less than Bob Ford (hardly a stranger to difficult putting), was left shaking his head several times during a US open qualifier. The best example is the 15th green.  I’ll say without hesitation that it is a modern masterpiece, brilliant for appearing benign yet so challenging to putt.

Being a member I stay away from commenting about the ranking Sand Ridge enjoyed in the last Golf Digest survey.  However, what amazed me was not Sand Ridge’s Top 100 ranking, rather it was the fact that when you filter out Golf Digest’s bonus categories (Tradition & Walking), the course rose all the way to #17.  Clearly, that’s over the top, I don’t think my fellow members would mind me saying.

I’m more a fan of classic architecture, but almost every guest I’ve hosted greatly enjoys the course and looks forward to a return visit.  Ironically, one of my best friends is an exception.   His experience with “Chinese water torture” doesn’t sit well.

[John_Conley]

Three designs I haven't seen mentioned here, Spring Hill (Orono, MN), Hallbrook Farms (Leawood, KS), and Dallas National represent some difficult golf for a 'cookie cutter' designer.

Spring Hill's slope is 153, Hallbrook's 151, and the newest Dallas National was just rated at 155.  I know that difficult doesn't mean great, but does anyone know of another designer with three courses sloped this high?

Spring Hill, which I've only walked, is hardly an ideal site.  It is bisected by a road, has rather severe undulation in part of the property, and contains extensive wetlands.  The difficulty is a result of the site and the private nature of the club.

Most of the Fazio stuff that gets bashed here falls into the "Upscale Daily-fee" category.

I thought the design of Spring Hill was actually pretty good.  There is no way a great course would result from that site.  (Ditto Hudson National.)  To get one as good as they did shows resourcefulness.

[Paul Richards]

John:

I agree with you - Fazio did some very good work with very difficult sites at Spring Hill and at Hudson National.  As I've mentioned on previous threads, the five pars at Spring Hill can match with those of just about any other courses.

[L. Olsen]

John Conley

There seems to be a theme that Fazio does well with difficult sites.  Being that he designs with sites most architects would deem too severe for golf, is the criticism that some of his designs are un-walkable a function of the design or the topography?

Also, with the thought that his public designs are generally termed easier and more playable than his private designs, certainly inclusive of the three private designs mentioned above, does Fazio actually do a good job of designing for the majority of the intended play?  And, does this tie into the criticism that he designs for the needs of the owner?

I just have a difficult time in understanding why Fazio is so loved by such a large percentage of golfers, but by such a small percentage of golfers here.  

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

I don't love or hate Fazio. He seems to me to be a very talented guy. For the most part his courses exhibit a certain artistic flair, in comparison to his contemporaries his aesthetic touch is very near the top. Which turns out to be one of his major weaknesses. He places too much emphasis on the look of a given hole. The holes may play reasonably well (but sometimes not too thought provoking or memorable), but they sure look fabulous. He has stated in the past that his goal is to create 18 photo ops. The result is a number of contrived golf holes and a certain repetitiveness - either with holes or with features (you can say Raynor did the same, the difference is Raynor was doing it deliberately and with strategic interest as his guide -- Fazio's is purely superficial and he also claims his courses are unique/distinct). Along with his own aesthetic touch, he seems to have surrounded himself with a number of talented people, however not all of them appear to be of equal talent. And as a result there seems to a significant gap between designs, some ain't so pretty and others exhibit very odd routings.

I'd say his greatest strength along with his aesthetic eye is his building ability. He appears to be master builder. In fact he may have made a better landscape architect than a golf architect. His Shadow Creek may be be one of the greatest works of landscape architecture of the last decade, unfortunately the golf appears to be secondary to the awesome landscaping accomplishment.

Because of his building talents he seems to enjoy the most success on difficult properties, either too flat or too severe. Unfortunately he often shows off those building talents on sites that don't require it - the result might be solid, but not very interesting. And for all his success he has produced very few standout golf holes. One wonders if this might be the reason his courses usually debute with very high rankings only too fall in short order.

The most vocal criticism of Fazio revolves around his actions with the 'renovation' of classic courses. He doesn't appear to be a great fan of these old courses and old designers, in fact he goes out of his way to point out (what he believes was) their weaknesses. You get the impression he believes he could have done it better. It is also apparent he's not a great student of their thoughts and ideas. Which begs the question why then would ANGC, Riviera, Merion and others hire him. The unfortunate results have consistantly reflected his lack of respect and study. If you want to know what drives his greatest critics, look to his redesign activities and his general disregard for the past.

[oskimon (Guest)]

Hi all.  I'm new to this board, and was pleasantly surprised to see a discussion on Tom Fazio at the top of the list.  I play at one of Fazio's newere courses, The Members Club at Aldarra, about twenty minutes east of Seattle.  Aldarra has been open for about 15 months now, and was recently rated the third best new private course in America, for what those things are worth.

The course is not without controversy.  It was definitely a challenging piece of land, and while I'm not up to speed on what it cost or how much dirt was moved, I'm sure both were significant numbers.  It's a hard course, too.  It's done "wonders" for my index, which has gone from 3.9 to 6.6 in that time, but it's a handicap that "travels well" if you know what I mean.  

There are holes which members, myself included, think are just plain silly hard.  Fifteen is an uphill 220 yd par three, with a shallow two level green and a huge bunker which sits about 15 yards short of the green.  In the winter it's a driver.  From the back tee, about 235, it's a virtual dogleg because of overhanging limbs about sixty yards from the tee which don't come into play from the lower tee.  There are holes requiring mid to long irons with greens sloping away from the player in the back.  The final four have been dubbed "The Gauntlet."  I played them recently 4-4-4-4, 1 over, my best ever.

I've heard Fazio is extremely proud of Aldarra.  At the Masters a two years ago he was said to be showing off pictures of the course.  The founders of the course tried to create a pure golf experience--no outside tournaments, small clubhouse, no banquet facilities, moderate guest play, in the Pine Valley mode.  And a hard golf course that will test you every shot along the way.  They, and Fazio, have succeeded.  I do think there are things on the course that could be moderated, but playing this course with the greens at full speed gives you a taste of what pros face every week.  I recently hosted a player currently on the Asian PGA tour who's played all over the country.  His take--it was one of the top two or three courses he's ever played.

[A_Clay_Man]

Oskimon-Interesting timing, Two years ago, it was under construction? And has been open 15 months. I wonder...?

Are there any strategic options? or is it one dimensional?

[W.H. Cosgrove]

Clay man and Oski,
Have played Aldarra and was impressed.  I have come to believe that it may fit, in an odd way, with Victoria National, Spring Hill, Bighorn , and Hudson National (which I have not played).  These are all difficult sites.  Whether you like the ultimate result of Fazio's designs, he has succeeded in placing golf courses into these difficult parcels.  As it turns out, in each case these courses appeal to some segments in the industry.  

I have been rather outspoken concerning Victoria National, I think it is a very poor golf course, but the owner got what he asked for).  Spring Hill was not a great track when it opened but I am told the owners (to their great credit) have taken a certain amount of criticism and done their best to correct problems to much improved results.  Aldarra too has some problems that only the creator could have fixed.  

Fazio is powerful enough to have come in and created pretty good results where others may have failed altogether.  I am not sure how many others could muster the vison(arrogance?) to impose the solutions required on each of these sites.  

It seems unfortunate that we judge Fazio on projects where he was asked to do the impossible.  Sure he has mailed some course in and failed on others. His concepts don't fit the GCA mentality.  But he certainly doesn't have much fear of the impossible.  His creation at World Woods is excellent.  The land afforded him an opportunity to excel.

[Paul Richards]

Cos:

You are correct about Spring Hill.  The owners took the criticism to heart and made some major changes and have made the course much more interesting, and much more fair.

If you saw it under its original rendition, and didn't care for it, it's worth a trip back because, as I understand it, it is much improved (I've only seen the after, but heard all about the before!).

[Joel_Stewart]

It's been 6 years since anyone posted on this thread and Fazio has had a number of new courses since.

I continue to beat the drum of his new course called Martis Camp in Lake Tahoe as being one of his best if not his best.  To me its the best Fazio I have played from around 15 courses.   www.martiscamp.com

Much of the credit has to be given to Scott Hoffman his on site person.

Its not going to get much credit over the next few years mainly because:

1. Its not on the East Coast
2. Lake Tahoe has a limited golf season
3. Its very private and exclusive

The last two holes finish with the following par 3 and very tough par 4.

[PThomas]

his Pronghorn course is quite good Joel...i played the Nicklaus one first and liked it, then the Fazio the next day and was even more impressed

[Tom Huckaby]

YES!

I shall beat the drum also for Martis Camp.  I went there with huge expectations as I had read Joel's plaudits... and well... if anything I was MORE blown away than expected.  To put in in terms appropriate for this group, I thought it was Fazio channels Coore & Crenshaw / Doak.  That is, yes it does have many huge deep bunkers, but there is a LOT of width (especially for a mountain course) and many many ways to avoid such bunkers... very very few forced carries over them and lots of run up options.. that it seemed to me to be fun for all.  The course also has generally massive greens with a lot of bold contour - now who does that sound like?

In any case I found it to be a fantastic course.  I cannot opine on its place among other Fazio courses as I have played very few.  But I will say this... as I played it I said "wow" so much the forecaddie thought I had lost it.  But I keep thinking it has to be solidly in my personal top 25 courses I have ever played (not that I have ever compiled such a ranking)... it just is really fantastic.  The final four holes truly rank among the world's great finishers, I think.  Joel posted pics of the last two - both incredible... 15 and 16 are very very cool also.

Joel is right though, the course is unlikely to get much credit for just the reasons he states.  That being said, I do believe it is going to meet the minimum number of visits for Golf Digest rating purposes, so who knows what the next Best New list will hold.

TH

[Sean Leary]

I am interested to see what people think of Gozzer Ranch. I think Jim Franklin is going to play it soon.

It looks like it is on similar type property to Martis Camp.

[Joel_Stewart]

I am interested to see what people think of Gozzer Ranch.

I've talked to a few people who have played it and everyone likes it.  Fazio told me it was a very difficult piece of property.

Maybe with such a huge body of work it's difficult to pick his best and of course its subjective.  I started a thread a long time ago saying Fazio does mountain courses best.  His highest rated course with Golf Digest is Wade Hampton.  So if you add in Gozzer Ranch and Martis Camp I think it shows he is consistently strong on this type of terrain.  He denied that he spends more time on mountain courses because of the rugged terrain and could not explain why he excels on mountain courses but said I was the first one to ask him about it so he didn't have an answer.

Someone will have to include Alotian as well.

[Jim Franklin]

I am interested to see what people think of Gozzer Ranch. I think Jim Franklin is going to play it soon.

It looks like it is on similar type property to Martis Camp.

I leave Friday and can't wait.

As I have said before, my top 5 Fazio courses would be:

1. Victoria National
2. The Alotian
3. Wade Hampton
4. Shadow Creek
5. Galloway National

with Estancia, Karsten Creek, Sage Valley, Flint Hills, and Dallas National rounding out my top 10.

[Kenny Baer]

I will include Seaside @ Sea Island GC; it is by far...and I mean by far...the best Fazio I have ever played....the question being if one still consider's it a Fazio.

I have not seen that much on the DG about the actual course; I have seen quite a bit about the financial troubles of Bill Jones though.  It was good enough IMO that I could not imagine anyone playing it and not enjoying it; it is one of the only courses I have ever played that I would put in that category.  A great walk with tons of strategy; fun green complexes, beautiful setting, wide range of options, etc...

From the pictures Martis Camp, Gozzer Ranch, The Alotian, look very very Fazio....; pretty bunkers, beautiful setting but the same ol' dumb blonde.   I am judging by pictures so take that for what it is worth which is probably not worth much.  

How walkable is Martis Camp?   The Alotian looks almost unwalkable to me and similar to Sage Valley or something along those lines.  Pretty....CHECK....great golf course.......maybe.

[Tom Huckaby]

Kenny:

Martis Camp would be a difficult walk - it is mountainous terrain -  but it's not unwalkable or the like.  Call it a 5 on the 1-10 walkability scale.  They do try hard to make it walkable, with paths and cut-throughs and the like just for walkers.  But of course I wouldn't know by experience, I took a cart.

 

I have little reservation saying Martis Camp is a great golf course.  But then again walkability is not a pre-requisite for greatness in my world.

TH

[Mark Pritchett]

Speaking of Tom Fazio and rugged terrain, Mountaintop GC in North Carolina is also supposed to be a tip top design.  I have heard nothing but rave reviews about it.

[Jim Franklin]

Kenny -

I found The Alotian to be a different Fazio. He had some risk/reward stuff, good angles, I really enjoyed it. As for walkability, it is very hilly. How is Augusta to walk?

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