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Mac Plumart

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Re: Tom Fazio's Best Golf Course Design.
« Reply #150 on: February 25, 2012, 11:03:49 AM »
I'm a bit weak on Fazio's.  I need to fix that.  But here is my Top Ten Fazios.

Sea Island Seaside (renovation)
Shadow Creek
Sage Valley
The Farm
#4
BDR Quarry
Pine Barrens
#8
St. Ives
Osprey Point

I need to see Mountain Top, Diamond Creek, Shooting Star, Victoria National, and Galloway National for sure.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Chris Munoz

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Re: Tom Fazio's Best Golf Course Design.
« Reply #151 on: February 25, 2012, 11:32:29 AM »
what about MacArthur, where fazio did the course with Nick Price.  I have heard rave reviews about that course.  also the renovated floridian and also his project in Brazil that should be completed soon. 
Christian C. Munoz
Assistant Superintendent Corales
PUNTACANA Resort & Club
www.puntacana.com

Michael George

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Re: Tom Fazio's Best Golf Course Design.
« Reply #152 on: February 25, 2012, 12:51:23 PM »
I think Fazio is like many architects that take on more projects than they can personally manage.  When you cannot be at every location personally overseeing the project, history tells us that these designs become more of a "signature" form course, than a unique design that will stand the test of time.  I honestly don't blame any architect for getting to this point.  Fazio and other architects employ a number of people and feel responsible for their financial livelihood.  As a result, their first priority is an obligation to these people.  If you provide the personal service to each project, you sacrifice your wife and family.  I am sure that these are tough calls for anyone.

By all accounts, Fazio at his best is really good.  Even amongst the minimalists on this board, I have not read many criticisms of Shadow Creek, Wade Hampton, Victoria National, Alotian, Gozzer Ranch and Shooting Star.

I think some of Fazio courses (where he probably designed from a topo map) are "form" designs that are good, not great, and somewhat bland - -  looking a lot alike many other courses that he designed.  For instance, in northeast Ohio, he designed Sand Ridge and Firestone West.  Both are good golf courses that I enjoy playing, but neither is unique or really special.  

However, I think architects are judged in history by their best designs, not by the totality of their designs.  There are plently of normal Ross designs that we easily discard and judge him on his gems.  Same with Stanley Thompson and Tillinghast.  Not sure this applies to Mackenzie or Macdonald.  However, only George Crump is batting a 1000.

« Last Edit: February 25, 2012, 07:09:18 PM by Michael George »
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re: Tom Fazio's Best Golf Course Design.
« Reply #153 on: February 25, 2012, 03:33:15 PM »
lol Miller best course would not make Fazio's list of top 30. I have not played even half of his courses but think Wade Hampton is his best. I would not be surprised to see Martis Camp continue to rise up and end up 2 or 3 for him. I have to think Shadow Creek is in there for uniqueness alone. I do not think many of the courses listed here are very good Fazios at all much less his best or at the top.

Bill_McBride

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Re: Tom Fazio's Best Golf Course Design.
« Reply #154 on: February 25, 2012, 04:25:23 PM »
lol Miller best course would not make Fazio's list of top 30. I have not played even half of his courses but think Wade Hampton is his best. I would not be surprised to see Martis Camp continue to rise up and end up 2 or 3 for him. I have to think Shadow Creek is in there for uniqueness alone. I do not think many of the courses listed here are very good Fazios at all much less his best or at the top.

Tiger, have you played Fallen Oak yet?    I haven't, but hear this Fazio in Biloxi is very strong.   

Joel_Stewart

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Re: Tom Fazio's Best Golf Course Design.
« Reply #155 on: February 25, 2012, 07:02:51 PM »
what about MacArthur, where fazio did the course with Nick Price.  I have heard rave reviews about that course.  also the renovated floridian and also his project in Brazil that should be completed soon. 

Interesting how some courses fall off the radar completely.  MacArthur would be one.

I played The Preserve last week in Carmel Valley.  It was better than I remembered, some pretty good holes.  It lays on the ground almost perfectly, only a few spots which seemed forced an un-natural. 

Wade Whitehead

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Re: Tom Fazio's Best Golf Course Design.
« Reply #156 on: February 25, 2012, 11:06:50 PM »
The chasm between the thinking on this website and what most people who play golf prefer is exacerbated when talking about Tom Fazio.

Most players love his golf courses.  Most players don't hyperanalyze every architectural aspect (or lack thereof).  They want an enjoyable course in good condition that permits them to get away with misses, especially short and to the right on par four approaches.  Mr. Fazio delivers.

At his best, though, he really knocks it out of the park.  I simply love Pine Barrens and agree with Michael George's list a couple of posts up.  Those are some fantastic designs that do represent a broad talent for memorable looks.  Whether any of them presents much of a ground game is a good question but they're certainly a lovely lot of golf courses.

In the end, though, most players judge Tom Fazio on designs like The Virginian.  It's high end, always in great condition, member friendly, and consistent.  They'll never know or care if it lacks a redan or bottle and would rather talk about the glassy greens than whether or not they were able to punch in an eight iron from 105 yards.

WW

Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re: Tom Fazio's Best Golf Course Design.
« Reply #157 on: February 25, 2012, 11:42:40 PM »
Wade most players love how his course lay out for eye appeal. We are tough on him for lack of strategy. He has some that have both. Joel mentioned the Preserve. I agree it lays out very nice as one would expect a Fazio course to do. I look at it as a missed opportunity. It could have been great and off the charts good. However it is just merely good. When I interviewed him 15 years ago. i ask ed him what course should I go see to get a feel for his best work when the client gave him a free hand.  He and his wife said Pine Barrens.

Sam Morrow

Re: Tom Fazio's Best Golf Course Design.
« Reply #158 on: February 26, 2012, 03:24:35 AM »
lol Miller best course would not make Fazio's list of top 30. I have not played even half of his courses but think Wade Hampton is his best. I would not be surprised to see Martis Camp continue to rise up and end up 2 or 3 for him. I have to think Shadow Creek is in there for uniqueness alone. I do not think many of the courses listed here are very good Fazios at all much less his best or at the top.

Tiger, have you played Fallen Oak yet?    I haven't, but hear this Fazio in Biloxi is very strong.   


I'm a Fallen Oak fan, I think it's a very good course. I go back and forth on the bunkering, it's cool but maybe a bit overdone.

Greg Holland

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Re: Tom Fazio's Best Golf Course Design.
« Reply #159 on: February 26, 2012, 08:46:48 AM »
So the results are in.  The completely unofficial treehouse subjective poll shows the following Tom Fazio best courses:

IN NO PARTICULAR ORDER -  (I have taken the liberty to attempt to place these in categories since his body of work is so large!)

Mountain Courses:
Gozzer Ranch
Wade Hampton
Martis Camp
Mountain Top
Eagle Point
Glenwild

1
Eagle Point -- in NC -- is not a mountain course.  It is coastal -- right by Figure 8 Island.

Kalen Braley

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Re: Tom Fazio's Best Golf Course Design.
« Reply #160 on: February 26, 2012, 09:52:44 AM »
I can now chime in on this thread...with great authority.  Here's my top 1 Faz list.

1)  Gozzer Ranch



 ;D ;D

Greg Tallman

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Re: Tom Fazio's Best Golf Course Design.
« Reply #161 on: March 05, 2012, 12:11:49 PM »
The never opened, nearly NLE now TBD/soon to open Chileno Bay Club here in Cabo will likely be at or near the top of any Fazio list.

They have a massive amount of repair and landscapework to complete but the course may open sometime late this year or early next. No idea as to how accessible it will be but given the state of the development today I woudl imagine they would welcome outside play for a coupleof year anyway. Plan for now is just golf,no practice facility or clubhouse when course opens but those things could change at any time.


Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re: Tom Fazio's Best Golf Course Design.
« Reply #162 on: March 05, 2012, 09:58:17 PM »
Bill, I have not played Fallen Oak but will soon. I hear very good but not great for the most part. The very good is meant as very good and not just being nice.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Tom Fazio's Best Golf Course Design.
« Reply #163 on: March 05, 2012, 10:47:40 PM »
The Short Course at Pine Valley  ;D

Jason Topp

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Re: Tom Fazio's Best Golf Course Design.
« Reply #164 on: March 05, 2012, 11:19:26 PM »
Does someone have a link to a list of Fazio's courses?  The only list I could find looked out of date and likely incomplete.

JC Urbina

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Re: Tom Fazio's Best Golf Course Design.
« Reply #165 on: March 06, 2012, 02:02:24 AM »
I use to swear that Wade Hampton was Fazio's best but after experiencing Shadow Creek for the first time I am amazed at the creativity and effort put into creating that golf course.  Now I am not so sure if Wade Hampton is Number 1 in my books anymore.



Mike Tanner

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Re: Tom Fazio's Best Golf Course Design.
« Reply #166 on: March 06, 2012, 01:54:24 PM »
I've only played 5 of T. Fazio's courses and it's a pretty slim cross-section of his portfolio: The Links (after Hugo, but before the more recent storm damage to No. 18) and Harbor courses at Wild Dunes, Osprey Point on Kiawah Island (resort) and the River course on Kiawah (private) and Bayville GC in Va. Beach.

They're all beautiful to behold and a nice walk (or cart ride) in the park, but the only one that really stands out in my memory is the Links at Wild Dunes. The way he used the terrain on the opening series of holes on the back nine and routed the last three holes to take advantage of marsh and water views to finish the round is pretty fine work.  
Life's too short to waste on bad golf courses or bad wine.

Joe Bausch

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Re: Tom Fazio's Best Golf Course Design.
« Reply #167 on: March 07, 2012, 09:01:22 AM »
Having just spent two days at World Woods, my group of less traveled guys would vote for theses two courses.  And one in particular would vote for WW Pine Barrens, as after 50 years of golf he made his first ace yesterday at the 3rd.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Tom Fazio's Best Golf Course Design.
« Reply #168 on: March 07, 2012, 11:36:39 AM »
Does someone have a link to a list of Fazio's courses?  The only list I could find looked out of date and likely incomplete.

http://www.worldgolf.com/golf-architects/tom-fazio.html
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Michael Whitaker

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Re: Tom Fazio's Best Golf Course Design.
« Reply #169 on: March 07, 2012, 12:08:53 PM »
We have 21 Fazio courses in SC! My favorite is the East Course at Belfair. It has a LOT of personality and is a very tightly routed course that is easy to walk. Not sure who the lead designer was on this course, but he did a great job creating angles and options. Highly recommend!
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re: Tom Fazio's Best Golf Course Design.
« Reply #170 on: March 07, 2012, 06:50:21 PM »
Mike yet another good course in that area.

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