Doak zeros....

[Kalen Braley]

My intent is not to be negative by starting this thread, I am more just curious and or otherwise about Doak 0s.  

A couple weeks ago, I beleive it was Cirba who claimed that because the bar for a Doak 0 is set so low, there are actually very few courses that would even qualify for this rating. Sort of the inverse of very few courses qualifying as 10s. I used to think a soggy, tree lined, bunkerless, flat, boring muni would be a zero, but this more closely aligns with a 1. So lets start out with the defintion of a 0:

0-A course so contrived and unnatural that it may poison your mind, which I cannot recommend under any circumstances. Reserved for courses that wasted ridiculous sums of money in their construction, and probably shouldn’t have been built in the first place.

So far, I can think of only one course that I've played that would maybe qualify for this...but even then, some of the shots called for are so preposterous, its almost cool and fun in a twisted way. I think a legitimate qualifer is the "The Ranch" based out of San Jose, CA.

Any others?

[Tom Huckaby]

You said it, THE RANCH.  I swear it's as if they set out to TRY to be a Doak Zero.

That being said, it remains one hell of an architectural achievement.

BTW I can think of no others around here... although perhaps The Bridges at Gale Ranch comes very, very close.

TH

[Philippe Binette]

I think most doak zeros happen to be course where somebody tried really hard to built something, spend a ton of money to shape it and built a piece of crap

[Jay Flemma]

I would guess two...Liberty National and Blarney Stone casino. (Atunyote).

Maybe one of the trumps...

[Robert Kimball]

For local ATL golfers, Atlanta National got a 0.

It's located right next to the new Crabapple Course in Alpharetta. This was in 1988, they have done a lot of work on the course since then.

[PThomas]

perhaps that one Norman course that got plowed under before it opened...although I guess there aren't that many people who actually saw it and could give it a Doak rating!

any GCAers see it before it was killed?

[Mike_Cirba]

I'd say I probably have only played 1 or 2 Doak Scale zeros, and although Jay hates it, I wouldn't say that Atunyote is one of them.  

I think it's just another run-of-the-mill-perfect-conditioning-every-shot-requirement-immediately-visually-evident-missing-any-element-of-luck-chance-whimsy-or-fun-or-return-value Tom Fazio "5".

[Ted Kramer]

The old Belle Terre in Myrtle Beach was probably close to a 0.

-Ted

[Jed Peters]

The Falls at Lake Las Vegas fits into that category.

Waste of water, that grass is.

[Tim Gavrich]

The phrase "can't recommend it under any circumstances" seems to me to mean that if you had a choice between playing that golf course or not playing golf that day, you'd decline to even play.  I really can't envision a golf course that would garner that sort of apathy from such avid golfers as we seem to have on this group.  But I've never read, nor laid hands on the Confidential Guide, so perhaps my interpretation is a bit off...

[Chris Kane]

My understanding is that awarding a 0 was almost a punitive measure, reserved for the big budget courses which were overdone.

[Ted Kramer]

The phrase "can't recommend it under any circumstances" seems to me to mean that if you had a choice between playing that golf course or not playing golf that day, you'd decline to even play.  I really can't envision a golf course that would garner that sort of apathy from such avid golfers as we seem to have on this group.  But I've never read, nor laid hands on the Confidential Guide, so perhaps my interpretation is a bit off...

I'd choose a round at Belle Terre before deciding not to play.
So if that is part of the definition, I take back my suggestion.

-Ted

[Tim Leahy]

Definite Doak 0 here in Sacto, Bartley Cavanagh. 18 hole muni built on land that barely would fit a regulation nine. Unsafe at any cost due to huge mounding built between holes to hide the tightness of the course and causes mis-hit shots to fly into other holes without being seen by those that hit them. No driving range. Would rather go bowling than play here.

[Tom Dunne]

I consider Hudson Hills in Westchester County, NY to be a 0, but it probably isn't.

The 0 really is a special circle of hell--not only does the course have to truly suck, they have to break the bank in the process. They're probably almost as rare as 10s.

[Mike_Cirba]

I think the "don't play" recommendation was a bit of tongue in cheek hyperbole, that went something like "don't play under any circumstance, lest your architectural mind be poisoned for life!"

I don't think he meant it as a "go bowling instead", but as a blast against excessive, bloated, wasteful architecture.

[Mike_Cirba]

Two come to mind for me;

1) Country Club of THE Poconos At Big Ridge - courtesy of Jim Fazio

2) ShoreGate - courtesy of Ron Fream/David Dale

[Jeff Loh]

I second Tom....Hudson Hills is an overpriced joke--even for "residents"

[Tom Yost]

Having not read the Confidential Guide, am I to assume Doak did not name any zeros ?

[JMorgan]

Stone Harbor.

And I think Tom gave it a 0.

[Tom Dunne]

Tom Yost,

There are 0s in the CG.

[Tony_Muldoon]

It's been too long since I reminded the group of the only -4 (Doak Scale) course I've encountered.  

Not only would Trump be embarrassed by the excesses of the rock feature behind the 65 yard wide single green; he would have gagged at the thought that the "second richest man in Wales" would have given the money to build such a course with no drainage whatsoever in his homeland.

The only natural feature left on this course are the gates to Hades, adjacent to the long cart path back from the 18th.

Yes the prize goes to

The Wales National course at The Vale Hotel.

http://www.vale-hotel.com/golf/walesnational.html

[Sean_A]

I have never seen a 0.  There is only one course that possibly comes to mind only because the site was far to lovely to waste on a golf course - Old Head.  If I thought about it, there are probably some wonderful mountain areas destroyed by golf courses.  

According to Doak I have seen several 10s, but I don't believe it.  Am I really to believe that not a single hole at TOC, Muirfield, Pinehurst, Ballybunion or Dornoch is to be missed?  Sorry, these courses are good, but they ain't that good.

Ciao  

[Mark Smolens]

Seven Bridges a zero?  It has 9 very nice holes, and a back nine that is an abomination.  Hardly a zero.  For me, a zero would have to be pretty bad (even if golf is a good walk spoiled, my worst day on the course is 50% better than my best day in the office!).

[cary lichtenstein]

My defn of a 0 would be any course where I walked off after 9 holes bored to death, and I can think of about about a dozen or so.

[Mike Sweeney]

2) ShoreGate - courtesy of Ron Fream/David Dale

Mike,

Come on, no way this is a Doak 0. I understand your disappointment with the course, but it has grown on me the 2-3 times that I have played it since my first round where I too was disappointed.

Are you saying that you prefer it over the up to a tee box and down to a fairway and up to a green and drive back up to a tee box golf course that is Pine Hills?

I play SG with my brother-in-law probably every other summer. He loves the place and his home course is Aronimink.

Even Tom Doak's rating of Stone Harbor as a 0 is contrived (same as Stone Harbor GC   ).