Ran's new home page photo

[Bill Brightly]

That is so beautiful!

I can't wait for Wayne Morrison to take a back of the hand swipe at THAT hole...amazing what can be done with "paint-by-numbers" eh, Wayne?

[Bill_McBride]

Cypress Point #13 was a beautiful front page photo, but this is spectacular!  Raynor?  Where is it?  Pretty please?

[wsmorrison]

It is a nice picture.

[Bill Brightly]

Bill,

Not so fast...let's start with: Gil Hanse restored it very recently...

Wayne,

Nice picture??? That's it?

[Garland Bayley]

"I can honestly say that I have never played a golf course and thought 'what this hole needs is a moat!'"


Charlie Dusic
November 3, 2006

[Bill Brightly]

By "moat" do you mean the Hudson River?  

[wsmorrison]

Bill,

For what it is, it is very nice.  I for one do not like laser level bunker floors nor geometric features.  Despite the interesting nature of the approach shot, it is not a architectural style I am fond of.  I think that is apparent to everyone by now.  Surely it is possible to understand that an individual such as myself that regards naturalism (making use of natural features and making man-made features look natural) would have an issue with an overly manufactured style no matter the shot values created.  Of course, I'd rather play a manufactured looking course with great shots than a natural looking course with crap shots.  However, there's no reason not to have both and such courses do exist.  NGLA and The Creek Club are not so manufactured looking and I enjoy that.  How much of the clean/level/overly geometric presentation is modern interpretation and how much is original?  

I'm sure Gil is doing a phenomenal job (as always) and I'm sure the club will be thrilled.  I have some friends that are members and to a man they are very pleased.  If the membership is pleased, then so am I.  

[Garland Bayley]

By "moat" do you mean the Hudson River?  

Clearly there is a sand moat in the picture. I was trying to help Wayne with his back handed swipe. Apparently, this time he has gone the straightforward route.

[wsmorrison]

Garland,

I agree, the bunkering looks very moat-like to me; at least as much as Road Hole bunkers look like roads  Apparently, Charlie Dusic wouldn't think the hole needs a moat either

[Bill Brightly]

Wayne,

I agree with much of what you say. I am so glad that there are such a variety of design styles. In fact I find it fascinating. I love the MacRynor style, and I love to see how this school adapted the templates to each piece of property, but having said that, it would be awfully boring if all the architects used templates all the time.

I think you over estimate how much Macdonald and Raynor forced the style on the land. They moved dirt, but so did other ODG's. To me, WHERE they chose to place each template is the real genius. For example, I look at how the great Redans use the natural slope of the land, not a bulldozer. Just look at the backdrop to this Short Hole. I have come to believe that Macdonald and Raynor always strived to put this hole is a very dramatic location.

Lastly, Macdonald and Raynor were hired to build private courses because the members wanted that style. And as a member of a MacRaynor course, the real strength of the design is how much fun they are to play time after time.

However, I appreciate your design preference.

[Bill Brightly]

Garland,

I agree, the bunkering looks very moat-like to me; at least as much as Road Hole bunkers look like roads  Apparently, Charlie Dusic wouldn't think the hole needs a moat either

Where the hell is George Bahto when I need him?

[Jay Flemma]

I love it and find it quite authentic to the oyher raynor work I have seen.  More than that, I think the boys doing the work nailed it...both what the architect intended and regarding the strategies.  

It looks like a wonderful place for either a nineteenth century novel or a Johnny Depp movie

[Bill Brightly]

To help Bill McBride, its a Macdonald course

[Chuck Brown]

I'm guessing that most of the GCA readership is just smiling knowingly that this is Sleepy Hollow, a C.B. Macdonald/Tillinghast design.  I knew instinctively that that was the Hudson River, but I had to do some digging to figure out what Raynor and/or Macdonald work existed in the Hudson River Valley.  I knew it could not be the Fazio-designed Hudson National, although I had to check and see about Dick Wilson's Garrison...

I love the picture, and it seems to me to be some classic Macdonald.  A hole that would fit in at Mid-Ocean, for instance...

[Mike McGuire]

I have never been on this green. The view to the water is spectacular. Do some of the trees block or take away from it?

[Mike Sweeney]

I have never been on this green. The view to the water is spectacular. Do some of the trees block or take away from it?

More trees are coming down this winter. It is still a work in process, but is probably close to the "end". There was 6 holes of Tilly out there, which have now been Macdonaldized to present a consistent look and feel. Perhaps George Bahto will jump in, but I would argue that it is the most unique/diverse/interesting/fun course to play in Westchester now.

[Pete_Pittock]

Looks to me like a defensive fortification much in keeping with the area history during the colonial uprising. Don't lose your head arguing the point.

[Bill Gayne]

Garland,

I agree, the bunkering looks very moat-like to me; at least as much as Road Hole bunkers look like roads  Apparently, Charlie Dusic wouldn't think the hole needs a moat either

I think it could be converted into a high banked concrete cart path without losing look or playability.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wayne Morrisson,

I know that you prefer form over function  , while I prefer function over form in many cases.

This hole is terrific.

The steep banks are a critical component as is the moat like bunker surrounding the green which is not unlike the 6th at NGLA.

It's a short hole with good contouring within the putting surface that extracts a high price should the golfer miss the green with his approach.

[wsmorrison]

Pat,

In fact, I prefer form and function.  There's no reason at all not to have both and with some architects you do get it (Macdonald included).  I don't doubt the hole is terrific from a playability standpoint.  You surely can give a person some leeway when it comes to aesthetic sensibilities, right?  In that case, my view that it is not terrific to me should be allowed and not questioned.  Why can't people accept that acclaim need not be universal?

If you must know, I find the combination of a steep grassy bank and an almost laser leveled sand floor does not appeal to me at all.  They are unnatural in appearance and undoubtedly more expensive to maintain than natural angles of repose.  The recovery from a flat bottom compensates for the steep grassy bank.  I would much rather face the challenge of an undulated floor in a bunker.  There is less predictability and sameness.  That is a serious flaw in my mind.  I recognize it is not in yours and don't question your right to feel this way.  I ask the same.

[Bill_McBride]

To help Bill McBride, its a Macdonald course

I "guessed" Raynor, having played a few CB/Raynor courses, but I've never seen this one.  That's a beautiful setting.

[George_Bahto]

That's a view from the 3rd green of the side of the 2nd green - Sleepy Hollow

The trees behind the Short have mostly been removed

This is the Short from above the Punchbowl green

[igrowgrass]

I've played this course twice.  Both times before the redo.  This hole (I believe its #15) was one of the most forgettable on the golf course, I think that has changed.
Anyone have more photos?
Is the old bridge still there?  

[Sean_A]

Pat,

In fact, I prefer form and function.  There's no reason at all not to have both and with some architects you do get it (Macdonald included).  I don't doubt the hole is terrific from a playability standpoint.  You surely can give a person some leeway when it comes to aesthetic sensibilities, right?  In that case, my view that it is not terrific to me should be allowed and not questioned.  Why can't people accept that acclaim need not be universal?

If you must know, I find the combination of a steep grassy bank and an almost laser leveled sand floor does not appeal to me at all.  They are unnatural in appearance and undoubtedly more expensive to maintain than natural angles of repose.  The recovery from a flat bottom compensates for the steep grassy bank.  I would much rather face the challenge of an undulated floor in a bunker.  There is less predictability and sameness.  That is a serious flaw in my mind.  I recognize it is not in yours and don't question your right to feel this way.  I ask the same.

Don't worry Wayne - I am in your camp.  In fact, I probably take it a step further and wonder if the hole needs sand - ie could this be a volcano hole?  The style is not my bag, but the hole does look like its a lot of fun to play.  

The first thing I think of when looking at this hole is "donut".  I don't know what the name of the hole is, but like Waits, I think a traditional prostitute's name might be appropriate.  

Ciao

[TEPaul]

Wayno;

Do you believe that new picture on the front page of GOLFCLUBALTAS.com???

I think Ranster Morrissett has gone off the deep end and this site has degenerated into an engineering aesthetic mindset and lovefest. That's about the most flagrant example of the worst of Macdonald/Raynor architecture imaginable.

That green looks like a big green custard on a plate of milk. It doesn't do a damn thing for me except make me hungry.

I think you should piss on that green at Sleepy Hollow, on Macdonald and Raynor's grave again and on that photo on the front page of GOLFCLUBATLAS.com, if possible, and I'm driving this time to make that happen.

I think we should leave this website as a protest against the look of artificiality in architecture that uses a desert tray as a template and go somewhere else to ply our campaign for the look of far greater naturalism in architecture.