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Garland Bayley

Name that architecture style described by Tom Doak
« on: November 12, 2007, 02:37:40 PM »
The quote below is from Tom Paul's risk/reward thread. It expresses a dissatisfaction with the strategic taxonomy in the golf architecture field.

Can we devise a new name that would enter the lexicon for this strategic concept?

I would suggest distributed opportunity.

strategic design - JT
graduated risk/reward - BB
horizontal demand - JS
sporty - MD
good golf - PB
individualistic - GM
too many birds in the same pigeon hole - PC
FREEDOM - MB (Max Behr)
Risk...Reward - LC
Intelligent Design - AC (perhaps Adam watched NOVA last night)

Quote from: Tom_Doak on November 10, 2007, 10:50:56 AM
I must say I hate that "risk/reward" term being used as an adjective in descriptions of golf holes.  The usage makes me cringe.

Moreover, it implies that no hole is good unless there are severe hazards to be challenged and black-and-white decisions to be made, when I think what modern golf needs more of are holes that reward position play in a subtler, gray-shaded way.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2007, 10:56:53 AM by Garland Bayley »
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jason Topp

Re:Name that architecture style
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2007, 03:12:56 PM »
strategic design
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Garland Bayley

Re:Name that architecture style
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2007, 03:15:40 PM »
Quote from: Jason Topp on November 12, 2007, 03:12:56 PM
strategic design

Don't risk/reward and heroic fall under that moniker? I was looking for something that captures what Tom described which I am sure we all recognize as strategic design.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2007, 03:16:01 PM by Garland Bayley »
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Bill Brightly

Re:Name that architecture style
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2007, 03:15:47 PM »
graduated risk/reward
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JESII

Re:Name that architecture style
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2007, 03:25:39 PM »
I think Behr had the term but I forget what it was...TEP?

Something about choosing where out across a field you want to play, with only the ease of following shots (per individual) as decision points...
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Garland Bayley

Re:Name that architecture style
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2007, 03:27:12 PM »
Quote from: Bill Brightly on November 12, 2007, 03:15:47 PM
graduated risk/reward

Where is the risk if there are no noticeable hazards of any form?
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

JESII

Re:Name that architecture style
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2007, 03:33:18 PM »
Short grass is a hazard now Garland...get with the program...
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Garland Bayley

Re:Name that architecture style
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2007, 03:46:41 PM »
Quote from: JES II on November 12, 2007, 03:33:18 PM
Short grass is a hazard now Garland...get with the program...

Not for you Sully! However, we high handicappers prefer the fairways mowed a little less often and not as close to give the grass a chance at holding the ball up for us. :)
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Bill Brightly

Re:Name that architecture style
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2007, 04:38:35 PM »
Quote from: Garland Bayley on November 12, 2007, 03:27:12 PM
Quote from: Bill Brightly on November 12, 2007, 03:15:47 PM
graduated risk/reward

Where is the risk if there are no noticeable hazards of any form?

I never said there should be no hazards,  neither did Tom Doak. My guess is that Tom is opposed to penal hazards, carry a bunker or fail, or carry a water hazard or fail. But to me, a Road Hole is the best example of a great strategic hole, or as I call it, graduated risk/reward. As this drawing clearly shows, you need to be right to have the best angle, but the further you go long or right, the closer you get to the bunkers.

« Last Edit: November 12, 2007, 04:41:16 PM by Bill Brightly »
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JESII

Re:Name that architecture style
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2007, 04:45:40 PM »
How about "horizontal demand" as opposed to "vertical demand"?
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Bill Brightly

Re:Name that architecture style
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2007, 05:02:00 PM »
Quote from: JES II on November 12, 2007, 04:45:40 PM
How about "horizontal demand" as opposed to "vertical demand"?


Nah, those sound like terms I used to use in Economics 101...
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Garland Bayley

Re:Name that architecture style
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2007, 05:07:48 PM »
Quote from: Bill Brightly on November 12, 2007, 04:38:35 PM
...
I never said there should be no hazards,  neither did Tom Doak. ...

I think his quote clearly implied holes with no hazards should be considered. Why do you think he was describing holes with hazards?
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

Re:Name that architecture style
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2007, 05:09:16 PM »
Quote from: JES II on November 12, 2007, 04:45:40 PM
How about "horizontal demand" as opposed to "vertical demand"?

You will have to explain that one for me. ??? Unless of course you were really doing Econ as Bill implied. ;)
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Bill Brightly

Re:Name that architecture style described by Tom Doak
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2007, 05:12:44 PM »
TD said he hated the phrase "risk/reward." I really wish he would expand, but here is his exact quote:

"I must say I hate that "risk/reward" term being used as an adjective in descriptions of golf holes.  The usage makes me cringe.

Moreover, it implies that no hole is good unless there are severe hazards to be challenged and black-and-white decisions to be made, when I think what modern golf needs more of are holes that reward position play in a subtler, gray-shaded way."

So to me, he seems to be opposed to SEVERE hazards.
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Garland Bayley

Re:Name that architecture style described by Tom Doak
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2007, 05:13:13 PM »
Bill,

What is subtle about the hazards of the Road Hole you posted?
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

Re:Name that architecture style described by Tom Doak
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2007, 05:17:07 PM »
Bill,

I guess it depends on your definition of severe hazards. The high handicapper thinks bunkers are severe hazards. Perhaps the touring pro only thinks of OB and wide water as severe hazards. I think Tom tends to take the high handicapper into consideration more than he does the touring pro.
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

Re:Name that architecture style described by Tom Doak
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2007, 05:19:56 PM »
Bill,

As an afterthought I would suggest that Tom's mention of subtle trumps your quoting the severe he mentions. I don't think he was allowing for bunkers either in his refined strategic style.
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Bill Brightly

Re:Name that architecture style described by Tom Doak
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2007, 05:24:19 PM »
OK, let's assume that the three hazards get more difficult to recover from the further you go off the tee. The bunker closest to the tee might have a shallow face, while the third bunker might be very deep.

It's also "subtle" in that an A player may take a safe 3-wood, hit it left, but leave himself a very tough angle to the green with a longer than desired iron, even a wood/rescue club to the green. Or he can GRADUALLY be more daring and hit it longer and more right, "subtly" increasing his risk and reward. If he bombs a drive 290, he may have wedge in with a great look at the hole, or he may be in a bunker that almost always means bogey.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2007, 05:25:43 PM by Bill Brightly »
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Michael Dugger

Re:Name that architecture style described by Tom Doak
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2007, 05:47:16 PM »
Garland,

It seems an argument could be made that there is a noticeable difference between a championship course and what the auld boys called a "sporty" course.

Torrey Pines is a championship course, long, narrow, penal and tough.  Two loops of nine, four par 3's, four par 5's, or something very close to it.

Cypress Point is sporty.  It's an out and back.  Not very long.  Back to back par 3's, back to back par 5's.

Pacific Dunes is not very long, has a unique configuration of holes.  On a still day it can be scored upon.

I propose Tom Doak's architectural style is "sporty."  
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What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Philippe Binette

Re:Name that architecture style described by Tom Doak
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2007, 07:15:47 PM »
how about calling doak's description: good golf
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Mark_Fine

Re:Name that architecture style described by Tom Doak
« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2007, 07:27:33 PM »
We all know that great golf holes can be built without formal "USGA defined" hazards.  And I am sure Tom Doak has built golf holes without any sand bunkers or water features.  However, I am also sure that he has NEVER EVER built a golf hole that doesn't have a feature that Tom believed offered some kind of hazard value and/or added challenge (call it what you want) to the golfer who doesn't play it properly.  If he did, he is not bragging about it  ;)

Here is an old quote to think about:

"The direct line to the hole is the line of instinct, and to make a good hole you must break up that line in order to create the line of charm."    Max Behr
 
Mark
« Last Edit: November 12, 2007, 07:30:08 PM by Mark_Fine »
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J_ Crisham

Re:Name that architecture style described by Tom Doak
« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2007, 07:27:43 PM »
Michael, I agree with your description of Pacific Dunes but have you ever played there  when it was calm? I've only played in a good breeze and still found it very fair but quite tough. I like to view the Doak courses I've played as having more than meets the casual eye and very different depending on wind directions. As far as Torrey Pines -does anyone  truly believe this to be a worthy Open Site or did regional politics once again rule the day. Hardly an architectural masterpiece.
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Greg Murphy

Re:Name that architecture style described by Tom Doak
« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2007, 07:45:59 PM »
We're speaking of holes that encourage or allow independence or individuality in thought or action.

Individualistic?

Seven syllables though.
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paul cowley

Re:Name that architecture style described by Tom Doak
« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2007, 07:53:17 PM »
....lets just call it trying to cram too many birds in the same pigeon hole.
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paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Tom_Doak

Re:Name that architecture style described by Tom Doak
« Reply #24 on: November 12, 2007, 08:20:21 PM »
Mostly I just hate the phrase "risk/reward".  It's not a word, it's two words with a slash in between.  I don't even know what to call that.

I was trying to describe the alternative view of things -- the subtle more gray-shaded view.  So which do you want to name, the risk/reward (which is still open for a real name, perhaps it's heroic) or the more strategic version I was speaking of?

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