[Patrick_Mucci]

I've noticed backstops on a number of AWT courses.

They come in various sizes, from small to large.

There's a neat backstop behind the 3rd green at NGLA.

How prevalent are these features ?

How functional are they ?

And, have misguided management practices rendered them disfunctional ?

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Pat:

A number of the greens at Newport Country Club are backstopped or bowled, many more than I first realized and I'm not sure I agree with having more than two or three on a course.

I think misguided management/design practices have created backstops, not eradicated them, as a way of elminating balls rolling through greens and out of play or into serious trouble.

Anthony

[Patrick_Mucci]

Anthony,

I was also thinking about punchbowls, especially the kind found at # 1 on the 4th nine at Montclair.

By misguided maintainance, I was referencing mowing patterns and the height of the grass rather than their construction.

[Bill_McBride]

Pat:

A number of the greens at Newport Country Club are backstopped or bowled, many more than I first realized and I'm not sure I agree with having more than two or three on a course.

I think misguided management/design practices have created backstops, not eradicated them, as a way of elminating balls rolling through greens and out of play or into serious trouble.

Anthony

How can "maintenance practices" create a backstop?  Isn't a back stop a fairly steep slope that lets the smart player stop or back up a shot to a pin in front of that backstop?

Just wondering.  I thought a backstop was a physical feature, possibly designed.

[Mike Benham]

Patrick -

All good questions but one that I would add and hear the answers is "why" ...

Why did the architect design a backstop?  

Is it a feature that was designed into specific type hole, a long par-4 or a short par-4?  

Perhaps a hole that requires a carry for the second shot which therefore doesn't require perfect distance control but allows the golfer to play the ball past the hole ...

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Mike,

I was referring to maintenance and design practices. There are two ways I've seen maintenance practices create backstops: 1) is to grow grass much longer than intended, which stops balls from rolling away. The other is for the accumulation of sand from aeration. Fishers Island comes to mind, for decades the superintendents pushed excess sand into the fringe and over time that created rises that were high and steep enough to prevent shots from rolling off greens.

As fars as design, there are hundreds of examples of clubs mouding up dirt and planting grass at the back of greens.

Anthony

[Adam Clayman]

The nature of the back stop changed in the dark ages of GCA when they went from utilitarian to containment.

The "favored few" seem to know how to bring back their utilization.

[Tim Gavrich]

I think that when properly employed, backstops can add a great deal of interest and fun to shots hit around the green.  In my experience, the greatest source of backstops are two-tiered greens where if the pin is in the front, one can usually count on a roll-back situation or the ability to play a greenside shot in an unusual direction.

ANGC comes to mind very quickly as a course that, judging by what I've seen on television.  Also, I've seen a lot of such features on Mike Strantz courses.  I don't know about anyone else, but the ability to chip a ball up  slope and watch it trickle back down towards the hole is really neat to me.

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick,

There's a really cool backstop on the back of the uphill, par five 17th hole on Tillighast's Valley Country Club near Hazleton, PA.

[Kyle Harris]

Patrick,

There's a really cool backstop on the back of the uphill, par five 17th hole on Tillighast's Valley Country Club near Hazleton, PA.

Mike,

I was thinking of a few holes at Valley that meet this description.

The 4th (with the Forse Green) has a well employed one.

[Joe Bausch]

Patrick,

There's a really cool backstop on the back of the uphill, par five 17th hole on Tillighast's Valley Country Club near Hazleton, PA.

Here is the green Mike is referring to at Valley:



I think #13 at Valley also has a backstop, just not as dramatic as #4 or #17:



Part of the fun of playing Valley late in the day is the loads of deer that come out for a bite to eat:

[Mike Benham]

Thanks Anthony, however, anyone want to comment on why an architect would design a backstop into or slightly behind the green?

[Bill_McBride]

Thanks Anthony, however, anyone want to comment on why an architect would design a backstop into or slightly behind the green?

I dunno, because it's so much fun to deliberately play long and watch the ball come back down the slope?  

Ever since I became interested in golf architecture, I find myself looking for ways to play shots without playing the obvious shot.  Backstops and sideboards play a huge part in this.  

[wsmorrison]

There's a great backstop at Ross's Charles River CC (sorry, I can't remember the hole).  One of the best backstops I've ever seen is Ross's 13th at Gulph Mills.  This recovered greenspace is simply awesome.

Mike Young created a terrific punchbowl green with a great backstop feature at Long Shadow.  Is it the 17th?

[Bill_McBride]

There's a great backstop at Ross's Charles River CC (sorry, I can't remember the hole).  One of the best backstops I've ever seen is Ross's 13th at Gulph Mills.  This recovered greenspace is simply awesome.

Mike Young created a terrific punchbowl green with a great backstop feature at Long Shadow.  Is it the 17th?

That's the one.  Most of the green is a back stop, with a flat area at the front protected by a DEEP   bunker.  I underclubbed the first time around, into the bunker.

Second time I smoothed a hybrid to the back right corner as recommended by Mike Young, and watched the ball bounce up to the top of the green, hesitate, and then roll slowly back down, out of sight, to wind up 5' away when we got there.  This is one of the most fun par 3s you have ever played.  

Maybe somebody can post a photo from the Dixie Cup.

[Nick_Christopher]

#8 at Kingsley is an excellent example of a backstop that works if you position your ball in the right part of the fairway.  

Hit an aggressive drive over the bunkers in the hill on the right hand side of the fairway and you are set up to use it on your approach.

Take the open shot down the left hand side of the fairway and the backstop is harder to use and the green slopes away from you on the right.

Brilliant!

[Sam Morrow]

At Tillinghast's Corsicana Country Club he employed several interesting backstops. On the par 3 2nd (230ish) there is a severe stopper right behind the green. On 5 (a 405 yard par 4) he has a giant slope in the middle of the green and a similar backstop behind the green as the one on number 2. Both of these are mown like fairway, yet the stopper behind 8 (155 yard) is let grown out. A severe stopper is also used on the par 3 13th (190) and a lesser one on the 430 yard 18th.

[Chris Cupit]

We implemented the backstop principle numerous times and i love it.  In fact the first picture of the "half-pipe" was inspired by my play at Winged Foot East's #10:


Our 18th hole is a 476 par 4 and we wanted a backstop for long irons and woods.  this picture is from behind and shows mainly the back right portion of the green.  You can kind of see the middle "interior bowl" that has a huge backstop on the right of the
The backstop is also a little different in that it divides the green about in two such that if you ended up in the left bowl and had a putt to this hole, you would have to start the ball in the left fringe to keep the ball within 15 feet of the hole!

[Scott Stambaugh]

For those in the PNW who remember the old #14 green at the Tacoma C&GC (now the rebuilt #4-)

The old green had a 4' to 5' tall backstop behind it that was very functional in that it allowed you to play an aggressive/low shot to a back hole location and not run the risk of hitting it into the forest behind the green.

After the green was rebuilt, I was talking one day with a long time member about the old green and he told me that he was told many, many years ago the reason for the backstop-

When the golf course was built at the turn of the century, it did not have an irrigation system and relied on seasonal rains to keep it semi-alive.  A heavy summertime rain would cause water to roll off of the backstop onto the green and provide irrigation via runoff.

Not sure if there was any truth to this, but I did find it interesting.

SS

[TEPaul]

ScottS:

Of course there's truth to that.

In the very beginnings of golf and architecture green placements were often in bowls or bowlish terrain simply to retain moisture. This was certainly practical as it was generally before there was any piped irrigation.

[TEPaul]

Ross did some backstops but I believe his term for them was "kickups". He did two very nice and very functional ones at my club---Gulph Mills (#13 and #18).

They seem to serve two functions---first, they would slow down shots that were a bit strong and, secondly, they generally transitioned the grade well from a higher flattish area behind the green down onto the green surface.

Generally behind these "kickups" Ross included a crescent shaped bunker covering the back of the green behind the "kickup". At least that's what he did on those two holes (and more) at GMGC.

On #13 GMGC we lost that greenspace to rough cut many years ago but it was all restored recently to what it once was. We recaptured about 20-25 feet deep of "kickup" greenspace on #13.

The playability of a greenspace kickup can be fascinating and imaginative from approach shots to pitches and chips to putts.

There's a nice one in the rear of Hanse's #11 Inniscrone--a par 3.

[Jamey Bryan]

Here are a couple of pictures John Mayhugh previously posted from Long Shadow's 17.



This is the view from the tee.



From just below the green.

This is a hugely fun hole.  The second day of Dixie Cup my tee shot got hung up in the fringe back left, leaving me a putt with roughly 30 feet of break!!   I rolled it down to 6 inches.......

Jamey

[Sean_Tully]

Staying with your topic, one green that I have already posted on is the 9th at Shackamaxon. I do not have a current photo, but looking at the older ones it shows a quite a distinct backstop. It also may have had  a grassy mound  on the interior contours of the green as well!

Tully

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick -

All good questions but one that I would add and hear the answers is "why" ...

Why did the architect design a backstop?  


Mike,

My guess is to stop errant balls.

Typically, you see them when a hole is up against a property line, although, they're not restricted to that area.

AWT seems to have employed them in numbers, especially on par 3's.

And, the size and height of the backstop seems directly related to the length of the approach shot.

Shackamaxon has some really neat ones, the 14th hole in particular.[/color]
 
Is it a feature that was designed into specific type hole, a long par-4 or a short par-4?

I don't think they were restricted to certain holes, although there seemed to be a tendency to place them behind par 3's, holes where trouble loomed behind the green and on holes where the greens might have presented a very challenging target [/color]

Perhaps a hole that requires a carry for the second shot which therefore doesn't require perfect distance control but allows the golfer to play the ball past the hole ...

It's a rare green that rewards play long of the hole.[/color]

[Joe Bausch]

There's a nice one in the rear of Hanse's #11 Inniscrone--a par 3.

Amen TP!  :-)

I'm doing my very best, obviously, to trumpet a very under appreciated course called Inniscrone.  

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