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Dave Maberry

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Re:How many have played a William Flynn course?
« Reply #75 on: November 10, 2007, 12:21:27 PM »
Wayne,
 2- Lancaster Country Club & US Naval Academy
Dave

Michael Ryan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How many have played a William Flynn course?
« Reply #76 on: November 10, 2007, 12:29:33 PM »
Wayne,

I guess if I only have one original Flynn course, I've got the best...finally played Shinnecock this June after walking it 8 times during the last two US Opens ('95 & '04).

Of his re-designs, I have played:

Pine Valley
Tuxedo
Westchester West
Westchester South

Quick question, the Monroe Country Club you seem to reference is a 9 holer, any chance that is MCC in Monroe, NY near West Point?  I had always assumed the Monroe CC that is in Flynn's credits was the one farther upstate in NY which I have heard very good things about, I believe it hosts a prestigious amateur event every year.  I grew up near the 9 hole MCC and have played it numerous times, would be surprised to hear that Flynn had a hand in it.  Feel free to shoot me a message on that topic...

wsmorrison

Re:How many have played a William Flynn course?
« Reply #77 on: November 10, 2007, 04:20:02 PM »
Sean,

I agree that all courses on the lists are not relevant.  Flynn only regrassed 17 of the greens at Gulph Mills.  I wouldn't include that nor Philmont North or Tuxedo.  We don't know if he did any work there.  The lists are posted to let everyone have an idea of an up to date list of his work.

Michael,

The 9-hole Monroe CC course is not too far from the Tappan Zee bridge.  It is now a muni frequented by NYC police and firemen.  Flynn was paid $320 or so for the design.  They may have overpaid  ;)

Steve Verde

Re:How many have played a William Flynn course?
« Reply #78 on: November 10, 2007, 04:25:14 PM »
I have played 6 original designs of his and 2 redesigns

JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How many have played a William Flynn course?
« Reply #79 on: November 10, 2007, 09:56:03 PM »
I've played 15 designs and 11 redesigns.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2007, 10:07:18 PM by JSlonis »

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How many have played a William Flynn course?
« Reply #80 on: November 10, 2007, 11:12:32 PM »
Wayne,

One--Cherry Hills CC

Denver CC should fall into the "redesigned not constructed" rather than the "redesigned" category; Flynn's routing of one hole that the club used should not count as a total redesign.
Twitter: @Deneuchre

wsmorrison

Re:How many have played a William Flynn course?
« Reply #81 on: November 11, 2007, 07:19:48 AM »
Thanks, everyone for the postings.  Doug, the redesign category contains all sorts of magnitudes of redesign work, for the most part, anything below 50% except in the case of TCC and Merion East where the percentage of work is higher.

In the case of Flynn at Denver CC, the evidence isn't concrete, however a case can be made that he did more than reroute a single hole.  My educated guesses, based on the materials you thankfully provided are that Flynn had a hand in 7 current holes and are as follows:

Flynn’s fifteenth hole design may be the precursor to the current fifth hole, which is attributed to Flynn with revisions by William Diddle.

Flynn’s sixteenth hole design is almost assuredly the precursor to the current sixth hole.

The current seventh hole, attributed to Diddle with revisions by Bill Coore, may be a revision of Flynn’s original thirteenth hole design.

The green end portion of the current fifteenth hole may correspond to the second half of Flynn’s fifth hole plan, attributed to Flynn with revisions by Diddle.

The current sixteenth hole, attributed to Donald Ross, may be derived from Flynn’s sixth hole plan, his only template design, a short dogleg with hazards found along the line of instinct between the tee and the green.

The current seventeenth hole may be derived from Flynn’s shorter 7A hole plan.

The current eighteenth hole would seem to be in the very same location and approximate length as Flynn’s design for the eighteenth hole.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2007, 07:20:21 AM by Wayne Morrison »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How many have played a William Flynn course?
« Reply #82 on: November 11, 2007, 12:44:33 PM »
Ok. But with respect to Tuxedo - its sort of irrelevant whether Flynn did or did not do any work. The course where he would have done his work was plowed under to make way for the NYS Thruway. The current course was constructed at a different location at least 10 years following Flynn's death.

Mark_Fine

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Re:How many have played a William Flynn course?
« Reply #83 on: November 11, 2007, 02:13:05 PM »
Enough that I might play them all before Wayne does  ;D  I do have to admit a couple I have only walked or driven around such as Pepper Pike but probably two dozen or so I have played several times.  
« Last Edit: November 11, 2007, 02:39:22 PM by Mark_Fine »

wsmorrison

Re:How many have played a William Flynn course?
« Reply #84 on: November 11, 2007, 04:17:05 PM »
I can think of one that will stymie Mark from playing them all  ;)

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How many have played a William Flynn course?
« Reply #85 on: November 11, 2007, 04:45:12 PM »
I know which one you mean but you'll get me on (I hope)  ;D

Speaking of playing them all, I am back up at that one in the Poconos on Wednesday.  If you are around that day to join me, let me know.  I also invited Mike Cirba.  Hopefully it will warm up a bit.  
« Last Edit: November 11, 2007, 04:47:47 PM by Mark_Fine »

Joe Andriole

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Re:How many have played a William Flynn course?
« Reply #86 on: November 11, 2007, 05:28:50 PM »
24

Paul Carey

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Re:How many have played a William Flynn course?
« Reply #87 on: November 11, 2007, 06:59:05 PM »
12 but I know some have gone through so many changes they cant have much Flynn left.

Didn't Flynn design Hains Point in DC?  I don't remember it on the list.

PC

Evan_Green

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How many have played a William Flynn course?
« Reply #88 on: November 11, 2007, 07:04:51 PM »
12 but I know some have gone through so many changes they cant have much Flynn left.

Didn't Flynn design Hains Point in DC?  I don't remember it on the list.

PC

I think you may have meant Rock Creek Park in DC? I thought he did do something there... can anyone confirm?

Chris_Clouser

Re:How many have played a William Flynn course?
« Reply #89 on: November 11, 2007, 07:07:46 PM »
Wayne,

I've only played Rolling Green.  

I've toured Philly CC with you and Craig Disher.


Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How many have played a William Flynn course?
« Reply #90 on: November 11, 2007, 07:34:15 PM »
12 but I know some have gone through so many changes they cant have much Flynn left.

Didn't Flynn design Hains Point in DC?  I don't remember it on the list.

PC

I think you may have meant Rock Creek Park in DC? I thought he did do something there... can anyone confirm?

Hains Point is East Potomac Park

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How many have played a William Flynn course?
« Reply #91 on: November 12, 2007, 08:04:51 AM »
15.
Mr Hurricane

Rob_Waldron

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Re:How many have played a William Flynn course?
« Reply #92 on: November 12, 2007, 08:14:41 AM »
Wayne

I have always been a big Flynn fan having caddied at Manny's for nine years. I have played 21 of the courses on your list.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How many have played a William Flynn course?
« Reply #93 on: November 12, 2007, 08:19:13 AM »
Don't believe I have played any although that isn't surprising considering how little I have played in the states.

Paul Stephenson

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Re:How many have played a William Flynn course?
« Reply #94 on: November 12, 2007, 08:40:29 AM »
One redesign.

Ted Kramer

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Re:How many have played a William Flynn course?
« Reply #95 on: November 12, 2007, 09:14:09 AM »
Just two for me. Rolling Green and Shinnecock Hills. Enjoyed both a great deal.

-Ted
« Last Edit: November 12, 2007, 09:15:41 AM by Ted Kramer »

wsmorrison

Re:How many have played a William Flynn course?
« Reply #96 on: November 12, 2007, 09:26:03 AM »
"Can you elaborate on the "unknown, possibly none" designation of Flynn's design of Philmont?"

Michael,

I'd be happy to.  I do not credit Flynn with anything at Philmont North at this point.  The records of the club and other sources have come up completely empty with any information that links Flynn to any work, design, construction or redesign of Philmont North.  Flynn's daughter could not recall any connection between her father and the club or course.  It is possible that some redesign work was done, but anything considered other than speculation would be inaccurate.  The only archival information available is a letter written by the local outstanding amateur, J. Wood Platt after the inaugural tournament on the new North Course.  Platt thanked the president of the club for inviting him to compete on the new Willie Park, Jr. design.  I believe that Park designed the course.  Maybe Flynn's contracting crew built it or maybe he did some design or redesign work after Park returned to the UK.  Who knows?  Not the club who insists on crediting Flynn without any sources and who choose to ingnore Platt's letter.  If they understood the contributions and design expertise of Park more, I would think they would embrace his efforts.  I don't think Park did the South course (that attribution probably clouds their view of Park) and believe it was designed by John Reid.

John Gosselin

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Re:How many have played a William Flynn course?
« Reply #97 on: November 12, 2007, 09:29:11 AM »
Wayne,


Design...16

Redesign....9

Thanks for the list.
Great golf course architects, like great poets, are born, note made.
Meditations of a Peripatetic Golfer 1922

Mike_Cirba

Re:How many have played a William Flynn course?
« Reply #98 on: November 12, 2007, 09:32:55 AM »
"Can you elaborate on the "unknown, possibly none" designation of Flynn's design of Philmont?"

Michael,

I'd be happy to.  I do not credit Flynn with anything at Philmont North at this point.  The records of the club and other sources have come up completely empty with any information that links Flynn to any work, design, construction or redesign of Philmont North.  Flynn's daughter could not recall any connection between her father and the club or course.  It is possible that some redesign work was done, but anything considered other than speculation would be inaccurate.  The only archival information available is a letter written by the local outstanding amateur, J. Wood Platt after the inaugural tournament on the new North Course.  Platt thanked the president of the club for inviting him to compete on the new Willie Park, Jr. design.  I believe that Park designed the course.  Maybe Flynn's contracting crew built it or maybe he did some design or redesign work after Park returned to the UK.  Who knows?  Not the club who insists on crediting Flynn without any sources and who choose to ingnore Platt's letter.  If they understood the contributions and design expertise of Park more, I would think they would embrace his efforts.  I don't think Park did the South course (that attribution probably clouds their view of Park) and believe it was designed by John Reid.

Wayne,

If memory serves, Philmont being constructed was also on a list of work that Willie Park sent out as an advertisement in the early 20s.

My research also shows Reid as being  the predominant architect of the South Course, with the Gordon's making some changes later to accommodate a driving range.

What I don't get is why the members of Philmont wouldn't embrace the Willie Park heritage?   He was a tremendous architect with brilliant, naturalistic designs both here and abroad.


Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How many have played a William Flynn course?
« Reply #99 on: November 12, 2007, 09:57:45 AM »
Wayne,
You are likely correct about Philmont.  However, I thought it was quite interesting that at the Flynn Cup last year hosted by Philmont, Ron Prichard was the guest speaker.  He made his feeling quite clear and said something along the lines that, "Without a doubt Flynn was the architect at Philmont and one could tell just by going around the place and looking at the design."  He of course talked a lot about Flynn (it was the Flynn Cup) and examples of Flynn's design ideas in the Philmont golf course.  I was in the audience and did not want to question him in front of a large group but was very surprised to hear such comments.  What are your thoughts?

Mike,
I don't think Ron Prichard's talk did anything to help the "embrace the Willie Park cause"  ;)
Mark
« Last Edit: November 12, 2007, 09:58:49 AM by Mark_Fine »

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