[Kyle Harris]

Did you read what you just wrote? Are you are saying that golf is screwed because some young buck in Buck's county who just took up the game doesn't have the time or the bucks to play Buck's counties best and, heaven forbid, he may have to buck up and play something less challenging because the forces of evil have conspired to make the game impossible for young bucks like himself and others to have access?  

I can't even remember if I've ever even been in Buck's county but without much trouble I found several places to knock it around that don't appear to require more than one $ sign to play, and no mandatory cart. Just the type of place for a spikehorn to get acquainted with a game that could last a lifetime, as long as his attention span remains intact and he can get a grip on his need for instant gratification.

Jim,

I've been there, I've played them.

They're the type of places that need a bar and pretty cart girl to get people to play - you won't play them more than once a year.

Is that the type of golfer that is going to help the game?

In fact, people actually criticized the cooler in the back of the cart crowd on my other thread, and now you're telling me that the beginning golfers can play with them and be satisfied?

[Jim_Kennedy]

Kyle,
We see it differently, let's just leave it at that.

[Donnie Beck]

If you truly want to bring golf back to the people. Something has to be done with price of greens fees. The average working class guy cannot afford to play golf these days. Weekend greens fees at local muni's are averaging $50-$60 to play a boring track. Throw in one evening round per week and a few buckets of balls and you are looking at $400 per month as a minimum. Never mind the cost of a few beers afterwards and a couple of dogs at the turn. I don't know of too many working class guys that have that kind of extra cash to throw around. I bowl with these guys in league every Friday night for the last 20 years. I have watched what used to be avid golfers give the game up. I feel for them.
        This problem has been on my mind for quite some time.. I have thought long and hard on it and I am making this my life's work. I am willing to gamble my life's savings on the fact that if you built an interesting golf course that is easy to maintain you can bring the people back. Hopefully in about 20 years I will have the capital to make it a reality. My plan is to build course with wide fairway's using angles to keep it interesting for golfers of all abilities and also keep the pace of play moving along. Create interesting greens complexes to enhance the proper angle of attack from the fairways. Get rid of the fairway irrigation. Let it brown out and use what the land will give you. This also cuts down on the cost of chemicals. Get away from lightweight fairway mowing. The larger units can cut the same amount of grass in half the time. Clear as many trees as possible to create a good growing environment. I know this can be done and a crew of 6-8 can maintain the course rather than crews of close to 20 that are being used at most places today. Build a decent practice facility. Bring back twilight 9 hole leagues during the week. These guys are your bread and butter. If you get them in a league they are going to hit a bucket of balls before they start and come back for a round on the weekend.
     It is a lot easier to bring people in the door when your maintenance budget is closer to 300k than 1 million per year.

[John Foley]

Amen - Donnie - that is a prescription for success!!

The recipe for success is getting the casual golfer (8-15 rnds a year) to the obsessive golfer. The only way to do it is with a fun / challanging course and a price whioch the individual market can handle.

[Donnie Beck]

John,

I agree.. It is hard to keep your game in shape playing once every couple of weeks.. I am living proof.. Prior to this year I was playing once every couple of week and my index was 18.7. I made an effort to get out 2-3 times per week this year and dropped to a 7.1 and finished at 7.7.

[Kalen Braley]

Kyle,
First you have to verify your numbers. Two out of 30 courses means that only about 1,066 of the available 16,000+ courses in the US allow walking.

 
 

Jim,

ALL the time, categorically no questions asked?

I'd say I'm pretty close in that regard. If there is any time where walking is not permitted, that's crap.

And if there is any time where I can't carry my own bag, that's crap.

So yes, 2 out of 30 is probably VERY close.

Kyle,

I've played about 30 courses here in Utah and not one of them "forces" me to take a cart.  For two of those courses, you can insist on walking, and they might think you are crazy because they are insane walks...but in the end they will say knock yourself out, and let you walk.

In addition, having played at least 40 courses in California, and another 20 in Washington state and northern Idaho, I've only come accross 1 course that "mandated" taking a cart.  

That is 1 out of 90 that made me take a cart.

[Kyle Harris]

Kalen,

All day every day?

Sounds like I'm in the wrong part of the country.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen,

All day every day?

Sounds like I'm in the wrong part of the country.

Indeed Kyle,

All day every day....

If anything they restricted you on times when you are "allowed" to rent a cart.  Several courses I played on a twilight 9 would not let you rent a cart after a certain time because they didn't want to wait around for people trickling in to turn thier carts back in after dark.

All this being said, I've never played a course east of Colorado so there very well could exist a different cart culture.

[Kyle Harris]

Kalen,

All day every day?

Sounds like I'm in the wrong part of the country.

Indeed Kyle,

All day every day....

If anything they restricted you on times when you are "allowed" to rent a cart.  Several courses I played on a twilight 9 would not let you rent a cart after a certain time because they didn't want to wait around for people trickling in to turn thier carts back in after dark.

The last part is certainly normal... I've been that guy - not fun.

And the clientèle is commensurate with the more upscale crowd? I'm guessing you're not speaking about the farm tracks here. Seriously, how good are these courses? What sort of golf market are they in? How big is the demand?

I'd like to be able to walk the majority of public Doak 4-5 type courses whenever I choose in a high demand market. I don't think that's unreasonable.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen,

All day every day?

Sounds like I'm in the wrong part of the country.

Indeed Kyle,

All day every day....

If anything they restricted you on times when you are "allowed" to rent a cart.  Several courses I played on a twilight 9 would not let you rent a cart after a certain time because they didn't want to wait around for people trickling in to turn thier carts back in after dark.

The last part is certainly normal... I've been that guy - not fun.

And the clientèle is commensurate with the more upscale crowd? I'm guessing you're not speaking about the farm tracks here. Seriously, how good are these courses? What sort of golf market are they in? How big is the demand?

I'd like to be able to walk the majority of public Doak 4-5 type courses whenever I choose in a high demand market. I don't think that's unreasonable.

Good question Kyle,

The majority of these courses were munis with a healthy dose of CCFAD's sprinkled in.  None of them were "farm" tracks, although a couple I would call "dog" tracks.  

The markets were SF Bay Area, Eastern WA(Spokane area), and Northern Utah.  Also played a couple in southern Utah and Western Colorado.

This being said, some of the CCFADs I played several years ago so they may have changed thier policies since then.  Even conceding a few of those could have switched, this would still only be 5% of courses requiring a cart at worst.

[Jeff Doerr]

Ryan and all,

Some interesting thoughts here.

In the Portland area most course allow walking. I think the caveat in the rankings really helped that. I don't think I've played Camas Meadows on the weekend, but that might be the only one where they require you to pay for a cart (even then I don't think you have to take it).

The cost and health factors are big for me. My budget won't allow carts if I want to keep my play in the 3-4 times a month range. And, I need to get all the exercise in that I can!

The perfect solution for me would be an inexpensive club but I have VERY limited choices on the east side of PDX. The closer (under 30 minutes) courses that might be options just don't excite me.

[Rob_Waldron]

Kyle

As someone who is interested in golf as a profession and career you are going to have to leave your dream world and face facts. Golf is all about the mighty dollar.

The cost to build or buy a course has to be recouped somehow. Like it or not carts are a huge source of income and profit. The cost of a caddie has skyrocketed to between $50 - $100 per bag. Clubs do not make money on caddies but they do on carts. For many a $20 cart fee may be preferable to an overpriced bag toter.
 
Every time a tree hugging environmentalist persuades a less than knowledgeable Planning Board that a 300 foot buffer is required from a stream the cost of building a course goes up. How many of the golf courses built prior to 1990 could be built today on the same piece of ground? Probably very few. The amount of land required for a golf course has gone from 125 acres to 200 acres in some cases. The routings are compromised due to wetland and other ridiculous environmental restrictions driving the costs up. The expanded routings make courses less walkable and bring the need for carts more into play. It is a vicious cycle. As costs go up prices must go up. The majority of the golf market has either been introduced to the game with carts or come to accept they are a necessary evil. Either way they are here to stay.

As a golf course owner / operator I can tell you that carts are essential to the economics of most golf courses. I agree that many golfers do not know how to properly use a cart efficiently. I also agree that mandatory cart paths provide a terrible golf experience. Unfortunately in many cases if the carts were permitted off the paths you have to rely on idiots to avoid wet areas and respect the course with their carts. Like this will happen?

Life is full of compromises. If you want to walk and carry your own bag you may limit the times that you can play or the quality of course you want to play. Like I said it is all about the almighty $$$$.

[Kyle Harris]

Rob,

I accept everything you said except the last paragraph. To me, that's just a stupid compromise to have to make for anybody.

We rode together at St. Cloud that day, didn't we?

[Garland Bayley]

...I think the caveat in the rankings really helped that. I don't think I've played Camas Meadows on the weekend, but that might be the only one where they require you to pay for a cart (even then I don't think you have to take it).
...

Doesn't the Reserve Vineyards require you to pay for the cart?

[Garland Bayley]

Tongue in cheek near quote
"Humor has it that golf is to become popular. It has already been adopted by some very wealthy people, but as it requires a motorized servant to each player to carry the implements of the game, it is not likely to become very common." -- Hartford Courant, 8/1/1993

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