[Ulrich Mayring]

Well, it was not a sandy wasteland, but a highly treed area, mainly pines and the like. Here you can see some of it during construction:




In my eyes that is far from a wasteland and the golf course definitely matches its surroundings, it blends in. The aesthetic problem I have with Cascata and similar courses is that they look artificial and contrived - as if somebody cut them out of a parkland setting and put them in the desert. I prefer courses that provide a holistic nature experience, where the course integrates so well into its surroundings that it looks as if it had always been there.

Ulrich

[Jim Nugent]

Ulrich, here is what Ran says in the PV profile...

"The initial 184 acres that Crump found that set the stage for this course is indeed remarkable. Set on sand dunes that bordered the ocean thousands upon thousands of years ago, the property was wind swept and scrub covered when Crump first saw it in or around 1909. One of the first architects to come see it with Crump was Charles Blair Macdonald who immediately noted, 'Here is one of the greatest courses - if grass will grow.'

Another description, from an online source titled  "History of Pine Valley Golf Club" (http://mimi.essortment.com/golfclubcourse_reqv.htm):

"The expanse of sandy scrub pines was so unappealing that skeptics wondered if Crump could even grow grass on it. To create Pine Valley, Crump had to direct the removal of over 22,000 stumps that had to be pulled out with special steam-winches and horse-drawn cables because dynamite only blew up the sand around the stump. Marshlands were drained, dams built and underbrush cleared away."

There was no grass there.  Top golf course architects and builders didn't know if grass could even grow.  The soil was sand -- ultra soft from what I've read here on GCA.com -- covered with underbrush.  Crump had to drain marshlands.  He pulled out 22,000 tree stumps.  This would go over big with today's environmentalists.  Would he have a prayer of building the course now?  

Sounds like Crump performed radical surgery on the land and local environment/ecology.  He transformed hundreds of acres of scrub-covered sand dunes into beautifully manicured, perfectly cut grass.  Even if it fits your sense of aesthetics better than Cascata does, the process seems to me similar.

From what I've read, PV appears like the ultimate soft-sand desert-type course.  

[paul cowley]

Not if they pay me, sorry. It's a crime to humanity to build courses like this. Golf should use its economical clout to protect nature wherever possible, not to destroy it.

Apart from the ecological angle, I think this course is about as beautiful as a Barbie Doll, i. e. blatantly artificial. Desert golf, if it wanted to be called golf, would have to be sand greens and rock fairways - which does not make for a very good game and therefore the desert should be left well alone. This course has nothing to do with the spirit of the game and I don't care how the holes play.

Tiger Woods 2008 on the PlayStation has interesting holes and is fun to play, but it is not golf, just entertainment. Sorry to be so harsh, but I hope I am entitled to a personal opinion

Ulrich

Ulrich....I am curious about what you think is permissable to be built in the desert.....houses, schools, shopping centers...or even roads?

Or should we just stay out of them altogether?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Gib you nailed it, great post. Tommy I am worried that you spent too much time on this one. It is not good for your blood pressure. Pat, next time you are under the ole Rees desk so to speak please ask him to let the Jones Sr biography be written with the benifit of reviewing the personal papers of the man. Small men do small minded things.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Not if they pay me, sorry. It's a crime to humanity to build courses like this. Golf should use its economical clout to protect nature wherever possible, not to destroy it.

Could you explain how to do that ?

Could you also explain where it's been done ?

What's your opinion of Shadow Creek and it's impact on the desert ?[/color]

Apart from the ecological angle, I think this course is about as beautiful as a Barbie Doll, i. e. blatantly artificial. Desert golf, if it wanted to be called golf, would have to be sand greens and rock fairways - which does not make for a very good game and [size=4x]therefore the desert should be left well alone. [/color][/size]
This course has nothing to do with the spirit of the game and I don't care how the holes play.

Tiger Woods 2008 on the PlayStation has interesting holes and is fun to play, but it is not golf, just entertainment. Sorry to be so harsh, but I hope I am entitled to a personal opinion


Ulrich,

Some deranged person has hacked into your computer and is posting on GCA.com under your name.

The desert should be left alone ?  ?  ?

Could you answer Paul Cowley's question.[/color]

[Jerry Kluger]

I just wonder why a designer needs to make the desert into something other than desert? What is the need for all that planted vegetation, especially the trees?  They are a distraction and if there are interesting architectural features that vegetation is a distraction from the good qualities in the design.  Shadow Creek was simply an exercise in excess and they made no pretenses about it - they wanted to create North Carolina in the desert - with that in mind they did what they intended to do.  There are plenty of really good desert courses so it can be done.  The waterfalls and the ponds are a bit much and out of place, but they don't detract from the design or play of a hole.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Jerry Kluger,

I think the answer to your question is fairly simple.

People...... golfers don't like the desert.

They do however like Oases.

Ribbons of green turf in a barren, arid environment are not natural or indigenous to begin with, so the balance of the ornamental trimmings you reference merely go hand and hand with the ribbons of green turf.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

So, it's OK for Augusta to have greens hard by a waterway on holes # 12, # 13, # 15 and # 16, but not OK for Rees to have holes hard by waterways at Cascata ?

Oh, wait.
It's OK for Tom Doak to put greens hard by a waterway at Sebonack on holes # 8 and # 13, but it's not OK for Rees to do it at Cascata.

Ross, AWT, CBM, SR, and Dr Mac can do it, but, not Rees.

Now I understand.

Who amongst you, if you lived in Las Vegas, wouldn't want to belong to and play this golf course ?[/color]

[John Kirk]

Who amongst you, if you lived in Las Vegas, wouldn't want to belong to and play this golf course ?

I dunno.  What else is in town?

 

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

John Kirk,

There are lots of choices.

Michael Dugger's imagery is a little misleading as he's posted pictures of the same holes from slightly different angles, which makes me wonder, what angle is he coming from ?

[John Kirk]

Yes, I noticed that there are many duplicates.  Also, I haven't played the course, so what do I really know about it.  But it looks a little plain for my tastes, and I believe Gib Papazian when he reviews courses.

How's it going there big fella?  I'm sitting in front of the television, watching a cartoon movie called "The Incredibles", which is really funny.

[Ulrich Mayring]

Ross, AWT, CBM, SR, and Dr Mac can do it, but, not Rees.

There are two angles to this. The first is that I wouldn't criticize a man for not being ahead of his time. Therefore the old guys get a pass on environmental concerns.

The second angle is that what they built was mostly sustainable - because there were no technological means to do otherwise. Pine Valley is sandy, but it is not arid. I do not know how courses such as Cascata (and Stone Eagle, Shadow Creek, anyting in Dubai etc. etc.) can be sustainable. Certainly they skip this issue entirely on their websites.

If someone has verifiable facts about the environmental impact of desert golf, I'd like to hear about that. Until then we are stuck with personal opinions and mine isn't favorable.

Ulrich

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Ross, AWT, CBM, SR, and Dr Mac can do it, but, not Rees.

Ulrich,

Surely you're aware that Rees had considerable environmental regulations to contend with, where the ODG's didn't.  Thus, Cascata HAD to get permitting from every environmental agency with jurisdiction.  If they conformed to the environmental regulations, how have they and every other golf course that goes through the same process harmed the environment ?

Ulrich, and ONLY Ulrich, could you cite, specifically, how Cascata harmed the desert environment ?[/color]  

There are two angles to this. The first is that I wouldn't criticize a man for not being ahead of his time. Therefore the old guys get a pass on environmental concerns.

Perhaps you missed the gist of my comment.
It had to do with siting greens next to waterways.[/color]

The second angle is that what they built was mostly sustainable


The same is true of the desert courses[/color]

 - because there were no technological means to do otherwise. Pine Valley is sandy, but it is not arid.

Have you ever been there in the summer ?[/color]

I do not know how courses such as Cascata (and Stone Eagle, Shadow Creek, anyting in Dubai etc. etc.) can be sustainable.


The same way that almost every golf course is sustainable, through the application of water from an irrigation system.

Without artificial irrigation systems the great majority of golf courses would suffer and/or perish[/color]

Certainly they skip this issue entirely on their websites.

So does every other golf club.[/color]

If someone has verifiable facts about the environmental impact of desert golf, I'd like to hear about that. Until then we are stuck with personal opinions and mine isn't favorable.

Why stop at desert golf ?

How about golf in Florida, the Carolinas, Mississippi, Alabama, Louisiana, Texas, Tennessee, Arkansas, Oklahoma, Kansas and Nebraska ?

What's the square acreage of all the golf courses in Nevada compared with the square acreage of the State of Nevada ?

Perhaps that might give one an inkling of the ability of one to influence the other.[/color]

[Paul Payne]

I realize that it is foolish to think we can stop populating the southwestern desert regions. I think there is a difference however between just continuing our expansion with a blind eye toward our water consumption and trying to be even a little responsible in that regard.

I have no beef with the golf course shown here and I am not Reese bashing. My problem is (as I stated earlier) with the water features that were built. They may be attractive to some, but to me they are a total waste of resource and unecessary for GCA.

Considering how scarce water is becomming (and will become) and the evaporation rate associated with open water in the desert, I have to ask myself why? If the answer to that question is "because that is what the golfing public demands if they are going to drop five bills to play a round", then I believe the golfing public has lost sight of what is important both in GCA and for their environment.

[George Pazin]

It's been some time since I contributed -- hard to do that when you're deeply involved with other pursuits.

I've played Cascata -- as opposed to those clowns who weigh in ONLY from what they THINK from the photos already posted. For those guys who think deep left field seat analysis works -- trust me guys it doesn't.

Here's a few personal thoughts ...

Plenty of $$$ had to be spent in order to handle the harsh terrain. The waterfall through the clubhouse area is a unique aspect and one I've never seen before.

The layout plays mostly one dimensional -- up the slope of the mountain and down the other. I know that's fairly shallow in terms of overall details but it's essentially accurate. I really liked the uphill 2nd -- the long par-4 if memory serves, but the details you find with other area desert courses -- see Boulder Creek (a public layout right down the street) is equally good and frankly will cost you far less than $500. In fact, if you want to find some interesting and at times quirky golf head to Wolf Creek in Mesquite or the affordable and quality options in and around the St. George, UT area.

The issue with Rees Jones here is again the same dilemma. He takes a formulaic style and simply reimposes it. To be totally fair Pat is quite right about the so-called "classic" type architects (and their modern day equivalents and groupies who fawn over each one of them) that far too often originality and uniqueness is lacking in their efforts as well. Unfortunately, because too much of GCA has been reduced to a propaganda mill for the "favored few" it's easy to fall back on the tired punch line of "let's play volleyball again with whatever Rees designs." Nuff said.

Joel is 100% on target -- the aspect that made me enjoy Cascata lies less with the golf than the spectacular off-course sites you see for most of the round. The desert and distant mountains really make for a powerful vista. It's really cool when the sun sets and you see the flickering lights of cars as they make their way from Searchlight, NV and head up U.S. Highway 95 towards Vegas.

The wind pattern is also quite fierce at times. Yes, these elements are part of the discussion but the essential qualities of the design are fairly ho-hum given the sheer number of other courses I've played in my lifetime and in direct comparison to other desert area courses throughout the SW portion of the USA.

Cascata does require steady play but Mike Nuzzo raises a fair point -- the greens are merely end points with really little in terms of detail -- in terms of angles or shapes -- that would cause one to really pause when hitting approaches. Look at the details Baxter Spann provides at Black Mesa, as just one example, and my point is reinforced many times over.

Candidly, when I see a boilerplate "par-72 / 7,300+ yard type course I have to wonder how it will DIFFERENTIATE itself from previous contributions. Cascata doesn't differentiate itself - it simple adds another monstrous effort by man akin to the same breath and scale of the next mega hotel found on the Strip.

The issue boils down to the fact that Cascata is perfect for the Vegas landscape -- plenty of hype with all the attendant buzz for the person who plays golf but not much more -- but for me with my pragmatic sense of golf course quality I would not leave my area of the country in a moment's notice to play it again. To be fair -- I'd say the same about Shadow Creek and Rio Seco, as well, along with a few others. There are quality golf options in and around the Vegas area (try TF's desert layout at Primm or even the Wolf at Paiute *minus the silly island par-3 hole on the back nine there), but let me strongly point out for those whose noses reside high upon the "classic" clouds -- my best advice is simple -- keep you narrow definition of quality golf to yourself and only play what the propaganda mill on this site demands.

Much of desert golf is like Thai food -- if you want your basic salad, steak and potato go elsewhere. It does require a bit more flexibility and given the robot like understanding of what a number of people have on this site it may not be one's cup of tea.

Cascata is entertaining at times and I salute the efforts of those who sought to build a layout on some of the most challenging terrain imagineable. For those who like desert golf there are other options. For those who don't it's simple -- stay home and tout other courses.

Just read this thread for the first time, and wanted to compliment Matt (who's quite often the object of my dismay ) on one of the more thorough and illuminating reports on a course.

At 5 bills, as someone put it, this one will have to survive without me.

[Matt_Ward]

George:

Thanks ...

Now all we have to do is agree upon Black Mesa and Wolf Creek !  

P.S. By the way if you should get back to the Vegas area be sure to venture to Boulder City and play Boulder Creek -- well done muni layout that flies considerably under the radar on this site and others.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Paul Payne,

Are you aware of the process that golf courses must go through in order to obtain water rights in the Las Vegas area ?

What would you say if you found out that the water in the streams/waterfalls is the same water, just recirculated ?  

And, that the pumps are shut off when the course is not in use ?

In Las Vegas, some would wager you substantial sums that more water is lost in watering lawns in nearby communities.

Are you sure that some of the water features aren't retention ponds ?

Et. al.,

Interesting that NOONE ever mentioned, let alone focused on, the water use issue in the context of non-Rees Jones courses in the greater Las Vegas area.

[Joe Hancock]

An out of context (maybe?) question for the Steve Lang types in the audience:

Does water ever get "lost" or used up? I always thought it just gets displaced, changed forms and then back again. Isn't water a resource that never goes away, it just relocates for a period of time?

Water in the desert will evaporate, or go into the ground then evaporate or make it to the groundwater table, then go back into the atmosphere, and return in the form of rainfall, right?

Is the environmental platform in this issue valid?

Joe

[Matt_Ward]

Joe:

It's a fair issue.

The best way I can explain is how much $$$ was spent on the constrution of Cascata and frankly I see little of real quality coming forward. Water or otherwise.

Head down the road just 2-3 miles and tee it up at Boulder Creek -- a 27-hole facility and you see, IMHO, a better overall course.

For the big-rollers who get to play Cascata the architectural elements many people speak about here willbe lost. It's likely that those folks will be flabbergasted on how a water fall runs through the entire site and then enters through the clubhouse area.

[Paul Payne]

Pat,


uh...... Duh!

That is kind of my point.

It is tough enough trying to conserve water while maintaining a golf course in the desert without pumping it through open stream beds for decoration. It is the fact that somehow one feels that this kind of decoration is a requirement of a good course even in the desert.

[Paul Payne]

Joe,

You are correct. There is one part of this that spells trouble for the desert. The reason it is a desert is that all that water evaporates up into the atmosphere and turns into rain in the midwest. Basic geography.

Humid air from the ocean, crashes into the mountains, creates rain on the western slopes and taps the clouds dry. The eastern slopes remain arid and desert like. Any moisture that makes it into the desert is there for a breif stay before evaporating and continuing its travels to the east.

Because of the low humidity in the desert the surface evaporation rate for water is huge. Many large ranch operations are begining to use sub-surface tanks as a way of preserving there water just to control evaporation. it is more expensive than open tanks and ponds but the Colorado river cannot support this forever.

So back to the point. Are frivolous desert streams necessary for a golf course?

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Pat,


uh...... Duh!

That is kind of my point.

It is tough enough trying to conserve water while maintaining a golf course in the desert without pumping it through open stream beds for decoration. It is the fact that somehow one feels that this kind of decoration is a requirement of a good course even in the desert.

Which courses in Las Vegas have you played ?

And, how can you state that a stream fronting or flanking a green or requiring a heroic carry is merely for decoration ?[/color]

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Joe,

You are correct. There is one part of this that spells trouble for the desert.

The reason it is a desert is that all that water evaporates up into the atmosphere and turns into rain in the midwest. Basic geography.

That's absolutely UNTRUE.
The primary reason it's a desert is because it gets little or NO rainfall, not because there's an abundance of water that evaporates at incredible rates.

When I last confered with some scientists they assured me that sand can't evaporate.[/color]

Humid air from the ocean, crashes into the mountains, creates rain on the western slopes and taps the clouds dry. The eastern slopes remain arid and desert like. Any moisture that makes it into the desert is there for a breif stay before evaporating and continuing its travels to the east.

Because of the low humidity in the desert the surface evaporation rate for water is huge.

Many large ranch operations are begining to use sub-surface tanks as a way of preserving there water just to control evaporation.

Could you identify and locate for us the large ranch operations in the desert ?  What kind of ranching do they engage in ?[/color]

it is more expensive than open tanks and ponds but the Colorado river cannot support this forever.

Is that solely due to increased need because civilization is expanding into heretofore undesirable settings ?[/color]

So back to the point. Are frivolous desert streams necessary for a golf course ?

How can you unequivically state that those streams are frivolous  ?  How do you know that they DON'T serve an architectural purpose ?   How many times have you played Cascata ?[/color]

[Jerry Kluger]

Here's what it comes down to: Reesse built what the owners wanted: a place for the high rollers to play and not feel that they are getting any less than if they had gambled at a Wynn casino and got to play Shadow Creek.  That's changed a bit now that Wynn sold out, etc., but the point is that the course was built as part of an overall marketing package - nothing more, nothing less.  

Fact is that 99% of the golfing public are impressed by waterfalls, etc., immaculate fairways and fast greens.  All those raters trying to justify their access should really pay attention to what this is all about.  The public doesn't care about firm and fast conditions, shot angles, etc., they care about eye candy.  

To many of us Cascata has a problem because the eye candy distracts one from judging the actual strategies invovled in playing the hole.  It doesn't mean it's a bad hole or a bad course, it's just what was demanded by the owners and Reese followed their instructions.  If you want to challenge his work then evaluate what he's done in "restoring" some of the old great courses or look at what he did at other new courses, but Cascata was built as a marketing tool and he delivered.

[paul cowley]

Paul....I am against frivolous streams generally, regardless if they are found in the desert or elsewhere.

Arroyos....intermittent dry creeks or riverbeds....can be an incorporated as an important design feature in the desert.

They can even flow on close intermittent intervals.
Sometimes even daily with breaks at night.

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