Where's the next great one located ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pacific Dunes and Friar's Head are said to enjoy terrific sites for a golf course.

What would you consider a potentially great site for a golf course inland, and on the water ?

[Dan King]

On the water, there is a sand spit that encloses Morro Bay in Central California.  It's man made to protect the harbor. About five miles long, with at the narrowest, about 400 yards wide. It's got some wonderful tall dunes, kids use them for sliding down.  It's close to large areas of population, not far from San Luis Obispo.

The problem: no way the powers that be would ever let a golf course go in on this.  It's currently part of a state park.


Click here for a pic about double the size

For those of you familiar with the area, that is Morro Rock on the left center, and Morro Bay Golf Club near the right-top corner.

"The grounds on which golf is played are called links being the barren, sandy soil from which the sea has retired in recent geological times. In their natural state links are covered with long, rank, benty grass and gorse. . . links  are too barren for cultavation; but sheep, rabbits, geese and professionals pick up a precarious livelihood on them."
 --Sire W.G. Simpson, 1892

[Mike_Sweeney]

http://www.barnbougledunes.com/index.htm

I will give a plug to a frequent guest of this site who is working his tail off to create the next great one. Hang in there Greg.

[John_D._Bernhardt]

I saw some beautiful dunes land north of Mendicino last summer which appears to be privately owned. Of course the sand dunes of Chile for any of you that would love to come with me.

[Tom Doak]

Patrick,

We've looked at four projects in the last year which I think have the POTENTIAL to be one of the top 100 courses in the world.  Barnbougle, mentioned above, is one of them; Cape Kidnappers is another, and it looks like it will be first out of the blocks.

I won't tell you in a public forum what the others are, but if you want to e-mail me I'll tell you off the record.  Just can't offend my other clients who AREN'T on my list.

[Larry Rodgers]

The next great one is being built right now by Mr. Doak and jis staff in Lubbock.

[TEPaul]

There's a great one waiting to be built (laid down actually) at Ardrossan Farm in Philadelphia and there's another great one waiting to be laid down too in Virginia just under the Blue Ridge Mts!

The one in Virginia could be the most unusual because it has the best potential imaginable to actually be the most extraordinary "courses with a course" the history of architecture has ever known!

That's sure what it looks like to me. It would take some real routing and design imagination but I believe it could be done. Perhaps 3 or 4 courses within a course and possibly one for every day of the week. The natural landforms for golf holes are such and the juxtaposition of them is such I think it could be done.

But the most remarkable thing of all is it could be done (would have to be done this way actually) where only one would appear to the golfer at any time! In this way it would not be unlike a massive Rohrshach test where only one image would appear at a time but there could be many when looked at differently and presented differently!

If something like that could be done and done really well, how great could that be? Has anyone ever heard of anything like that that actually works well and is used too?

It would certainly appear though that a few of the design characteristics would have to be some really well thought out "randomness" of "feature" placement probably needing a combination of real fairway width in some specific areas as well.

I see it as something that might appear as a bit of a "meld" in an aerial but not when on the ground!

[GeoffreyC]

Pat

There is an amazing piece of land adjacent to the Carne golf course in Ireland that is begging for a links similar to Ballybunion to be built upon it. It has blowouts of sand that must be 40-80 feet high.  I believe there are about 250 acres of perfect property that looks like Ballybunion and Cruden Bay without the golf holes on it.

I think Eddie Hackett didn't quite do it right at Carne.  Its a good course but it could have been great.  I spoke with the builder of the course who answered some questions I had about the adjacent property that is owned by the same group or individual. I spoke with him about the american architects I think would make a world class course from that land and he said he was interested in looking into it.  That was almost two years ago.  Its out in the middle of no where so I wonder if a second course would make sense but the property is amazing.

[Scott_Burroughs]

I knew about Tom P's possible course(s), but Dick Daley has mentioned that he's looking at a few wonderful properties in the Nebraska sand hills to build his dream course on.

I would also imagine there's lots of other links land on the Oregon coast that is either unavailable or just hasn't been met with the right price/bargaining tools/lawyers.

You'd think with the sandy soil that the North Carolina coast could have a great course built, but so far, hasn't been done.  It's been posed here before, by Ran I believe, why does SC have a much higher quality of coastal courses than NC?

[JAMIE_BLACK]

Southern Gailes, Scotland. Probably the last links course to be built on the Firth of Clyde.  It will be a tall order to live up to it's next door neighbours ( Western Gailes, Glasgow Gailes and Barassie) but it could be a cracker.  Has anyone heard how it is coming on?

[Keith Williams]

While South Carolina has great quality in coastal golf, I think the greatest place with potential is the Georgia coast.  Unfortunately most of the 100 or so miles of oceanfront property is government owned (national seashores, national wildlife refuges).  The Georgia coast is so unique though.  Cumberland Island, for example, has 60-80 foot tall sand dunes, 300 year old live oaks and beautiful salt marshes.  Every time I see the amazing beaches and duneslands that Georgia possesses part of me wishes that SOME HOW, SOME WAY somebody would take advantage of the great natural properties; of course the other part of me knows that some places are just too special to mess with.  A little bit of the Georgia coast is privately owned, but I have never heard of anyone expressing desire to develop it.

Another possibility that has always attracted me is the panhandle of Florida.  While Destin and Panama City are already overdeveloped (and are still using the oceanfront property for condos and not golf), once you move east of Panama City the coast gets far less developed.  The Air Force Base on the east side of Panama City owns miles of totally undeveloped and largely unused oceanfront property.  Moving east from the base one finds Mexico Beach, Port St. Joe, Cape San Blas, St. George Island (which originally had an oceanfront golf course in its master plan, but was scrapped for more beachfront housing) and Carabelle Beach.  This area is SO much less developed than the cities west of the Air Force Base.  As the panhandle continues to develop quickly (see seaside, rosemary beach, camp creek, shark's tooth) I hope that someone will have the foresight to set aside enough land and build what could be a spectacular golf course!

[Jeff Fortson]

Anywhere on the coast or slightly inland on the Pacific Coast from just north of San Luis Obispo down to Santa Barbara.

Jeff F.

[Three_Putt]

I had heard about a piece of land in Long Island next to NGLA that was going to be developed into a Jack Nicklaus golf course (backed by some of the folks who were behind The Medalist)...

Rumor is that the property (currently known as Bayberry Land) is spectacular.

[Rich Goodale (Guest)]

My personal belief is that there are hundreds of better sites out there than the ones used for either Pacific Dunes or Friars Head, each of which I would rate no more than 6-7 out of 10--in terms of golf potential only!  There are better sites every mile or two down the road when you drive through the linksland of the British Isles.  There is some great rolling dune land at the base of the foothills of the San Fernando Valley heading south from SF to Disneyland.  Hell, according to C&C there are 10 great golf courses left to be developed out there in that one wee corner at the edge of the civilized world, Mullen, Nebraska!

The reason places like PD adn FH have so far succeeded is due, IMHO to three factors which are far more important than the natural qualities of the site, in rough order:

1.  A "developable" site (i.e. one with access and the potential to get permits).
2.  Visionary/ballsy owners/developers who could get those permits and also had the foresight to choose...
3.  Excellent golf course architects

The answer to the question is, therefore....we don't know!

[DanG]

On Southern Dunes, I saw it in August of last year while driving between Barassie and Western Gailes.  They were still moving dirt, but my playing partner and I were astounded at the amount of dirt being moved.  It was A LOT!  Surprising since the other courses in Ayrshire are pretty subtle.

[TEPaul]

Rich:

We sure do know where the land is--there's no doubt about that! Another perfect example is about 2 miles of land on both sides of A1A just below Amelia Island Fla. that is absolutely the most natural dunsy land that could be found anywhere!

To actually build a course there all you'd have to do is route the balance and variety through these dunsy landforms not that much different than MacKenzie did on holes like 6-14 at Cypress. Basically he just found the forms and laid the tees, fairways and greens on it. At #9 Cypress you can clearly see from before and after photos that he moved about two tablespoons of earth!

Same could be done with this complete dunsy land south of Amelia--you could just lay the course on very gently. But alas, the land belongs to the Florida Parks Department and basically you're not even allowed to walk on it now!

I took a bunch of photos of these dunesland formations and sent them to GeoffShac and will give copies to Gil. It's just the kind of stuff that they like to look at for ideas for the formation of natural bunkering and other golf feature formations. It's just the kind of thing that Jeff Bradley has been known to sit and stare at for hours just for inspiration and it's undoubtably why he's so damn good at what he does!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Three Putt,

I had forgotten about that site.

Will anything built there pale by comparison, always living in the shadow of greatness ?  It sure is a tough act to follow.

I'm not sure why Nicklaus would want to tackle thi$ one.

[Doug Wright]

From what I've seen of the first two, course #3 @ Bandon should be pretty good. The owner seems to know what he's doing...

All The Best,

[Chris_Clouser]

Most of the sites mentioned are coastal/sand based areas.  What about inland sites?  Unfortunately, just 5 miles south of me a perfect piece of land was bought by a developer and is going to be a housing community.  Another developer was trying to buy the land for use as a golf course, but the people in the area protested (get this) because they weren't sure what type of crowd a golf course would bring to the area.  The funny thing is I walked the site about 100 times and even took my wife around it once and showed her where some perfect green locations would have been.  Without even moving dirt 9 holes were very easy to locate.  A real shame.  Now one of the most overdeveloped areas of the country is getting more housing.

[Robert "Cliff" Stanfield]

There is a website for Southern Gailes.  Check it out it has construction pics etc.  I saw the course from the road last week when I was playing Western Gailes...looked like the grass was still growing in a few of us stated that it really looked as if construction has halted...since there was trash etc still in the soil near grade.  It will be a long time before it can be compared to any on that coastline.

[RJ_Daley]

Public policy and what society values, rules this topic.  There are endless sites to locate the next great one.  But, there are also countless conflicts of various user groups that must constantly be debated and fought over.  Some groups win, some groups loose.  And, that same conflict can be applied to the diverse economic interests.  

One funny set of values and economic and social circumstances struck me on my one and only trip along the great capes of Lookout, Hateras and Outter Banks national seashores.  What greater opportunities are there than that for pure oceanside dunesland golf?  As one goes the entire length of the shore, one sees one home more stunning than the next propped up precariously on stilts or shored up by massive seawall and earth works.  But, not very many old ones...  Why, because hurricanes come through there every decade or so and wipe them out and they simply get the insurance and rebuild them even more grand than the previous stock of seashore homes.  It is like a value system that allows both a wasted use of insurance that I would think skews the insurance rates, and a public policy acceptance of an approved use of that land.  Yet, if they propose to construct golf courses utilizing some of that seashore land we all know it would never fly.  Many people could get a common enjoyment out of the advent of a seashore trail of courses there.  But, it is OK to permit homes that will systematically get blown out by hurricanes yet the cost of one of those homes would build a course for all to use, and the cost of one other would more than repair storm damage that is inevitable to occur.

Also, I won't even bother you all with another obvious paean to Nebraska sand hill golf potential.  It is so obvious it hurts to keep singing that song and get so little response to an invite to partner up and do something.  

Rich Goodale says it all best above in his 3 points IMHO...

[Slag_Bandoon]

Yachats, New Albion !    

[Slag_Bandoon]

That was Post # 25000!  What do I win?  

[Joel_Stewart]

There is a website for Southern Gailes.  Check it out it has construction pics etc.  I saw the course from the road last week when I was playing western Gailes...looked like the grass was still growin in a few of us stated that it really looked as if construction has halted...since there was trash etc still in the soil near grade.  It will be a long time before it can be compared to any on that coastline.

What is the website for Southern Gailes?  
I spoke with Kyle Phillips who is the architect a few weeks ago and he thought it was going to be a s good as Kingsbarn.

[Tom Doak]

Joel:  Of course, Kyle has a lot invested in having Southern Gailes turn out as good as Kingsbarns ... architects aren't exactly the best unbiased sources.

Unfortunately, it's pretty hard for me to say I think a site has as much potential as Pacific Dunes.  [If that site was only a 7, I still haven't seen a 10.]  But, the job is still to make the most of the site you have.  And it's nice to know there are so many great sites still out there.