Traverse City Golf

[David Wigler]

Don,

Give me Tiger and Garcia and I will take the bet site unseen.  If I only get Tiger, then I want to wait 1 round again.  Have fun up north.

[Nick_Christopher]

Don,

I would look into either Pinecroft Golf Plantation or Champion Hill, both in Benzie County - about 1/2 hour from T.C.  Both newer, natural and inexpensive (around $40).  Both are pretty courses with some interesting, quirky holes.  If you're still looking around, I would consider both of these.

[Frank Pellegrino]

David
Who cares about the Doak scale? Do you judge your golf course architecture based on the fuzzy Doak scale?

When a relatively mundane design is a 'bullet proof 7', what does that say about the Doak scale's architectural usefullness. And when a course with bold and interesting architecture is deemed 'mediocre', for what ever reason, what does that say about your judgement or points of emphasis? If Don's interest is architecture I'd recommend High Pointe over Flint Hills every time, I'm not sure how that translates on your scale.

[David Wigler]

Frank,

You find Flint Hills National a "relatively mundane design" and High Pointe a "course with bold and interesting architecture"?  I do not know how to respond.  To me, it is your judgment that is seriously in question.  You are the first person I have ever heard who played Flint Hills and described it as such.  You did play it, I assume?  GD had it rated as the #1 new private course in America several years ago, so I would venture to guess my opinion of Flint is a lot more mainstream than yours.  I am guessing that you are just another blind Fazio basher.  

As for Doak's "Fuzzy" scale, I have no idea what you are talking about.  Doak describes a "7" quite clearly as "An excellent course, worth checking out if you get anywhere within 100 miles.  You can expect to find soundly designed, interesting holes, good course conditioning, and a pretty setting, if not necessarily anything unique to the world of golf."  I find nothing "fuzzy" about that description at all.  It is quite clear.  You have read Doak's book, haven't you?  Flint Hills National is a bulletproof 7.  Doak's description fits that course perfectly.

You did not answer my other question.  Why do you think you know me?  Have we met and I cannot place your name or face?  Where did you think you got my impression of Rustic Canyon?  I only played it two weeks ago.  Where did you get the opinion that I rate courses based on how I play them from (Interesting note, I did not break 80 on either of the two courses I have rated highest)?  I do appreciate aesthetic features, so that part of your post was true, but the rest was hogwash and posed as though we are friends who discuss golf.  If I actually know who you are and we have had discussions, then I apologize for not remembering you.  If not, then making up my opinions on Rustic Canyon and how I rate courses is in extremely poor taste.  

[Will E]

driving up I'd steer you to Tullymoore, it's a great test if you can get over some very strange looking bunkering. On bunkering, some of the best looking bunkers I've ever seen are at Black Forest. BF, IMHO does not get the respect it deserves. I'm on record as saying it's in my top 5 in MI.

[Will W]

anthony nysse,

i'd be interested to hear your thoughts on diamond springs.  i'm planning on a weekend trip to western michigan and would like to include it on my trip.  i haven't found anything online with information about the course, however.

will wang

[Tim Weiman]

David Wigler:

Given your comments to Craig Edgmand about High Pointe, I gather you wouldn't recommend Pacific Grove to those visiting Monterey for the first time, would you?

Fair enough.  But, I've had great fun on the cool nine at Pacific Grove and would have no hesitation recommending it to people traveling a long distance.

Beyond that, I'm with Craig in terms of appreciation for High Pointe and it has nothing to do with looking for some invitation from Tom Doak.

It was conceived as being a fun course with interesting shots, but one you didn't have to pay a fortune to play.

Isn't that the sort of thing we should be encouraging?

[Doug Wright]

Don M,

I played High Pointe 2 years ago, pre my entry into GCA, and I'd play it again in a minute. There are several very distinct architectural features that I can recall immediately that would compel me to return: the green complexes at 7, 8, 11, 13 and 16 and the cross bunkering on the par 5 9th.  Generally a very good routing too, though the 18th hole is a real head scratcher.   Sure the conditions may not be what they were intended to be or what we'd like them to be, but there's more than enough "there there" to make it worth your while.

All The Best,  

[David Wigler]

Tim,

You ask a good question so let me answer it in two parts but add a caveat first.  I have never played Pacific Grove.  I might play the course, fall in love and recommend it to everyone.  As you have seen, I am not afraid to like what others don't and visa versa.  That written, I'll answer your question in the context of my response to Don.

Let's say Don had asked for advice on Monterey.  I know that Don is from Arizona, so he is traveling a long way.  I know from the fact that he is playing Crystal and Kingsley (The best two privates in the area) that he has access to any private course.  I know from the fact that he is considering Arcadia and Bay Harbor (Both over $200) that money is not an object.  I know that he is willing to drive 1 1/2 hours and I know that he has limited time.  Given all that I knew when I responded to his question, if the question were Monterey, I would not recommend Pacific Grove in a million years.  Pacific Grove over Cypress, Pebble, Spyglass, Pasatiempo, Stanford, MPCC 1, MPCC 2 (Maybe Spanish and Poppy).  Why in the world would I send him to Pacific when he could play any of the rest?  Would you send him to Pacific?

As for your description, I believe you have accurately described Pacific.  I do not think that was Doak's intent at High Pointe.  Remember that High Pointe was on Golf's top 100 in the country list right up until Doak left the panel.  Doak speaks of it in his books first addition as one of the finest courses in the country.  It was not intended to be a fun, interesting, low cost golf course.  It was intended to be a world-class golf course and the showpiece for Doak to jump-start his architecture business.  Its price (As well as its condition, features, etc.) has been reduced over the years.

I hope that makes sense.  If Don had said that he was on a tight budget and did not have the ability to see private courses, I would recommend High Pointe all day long and feel comfortable doing so.

[Frank Pellegrino]

Craig and Tim
Did that answer your question? I still have no idea why he would not recommend the course to someone who appreciates interesting architecture. Condition? Actually I do, David has little appreciation for architecture. He thinks by dissing Doak and praising Fazio it shows he has balls when it comes to evaluation, but when pressed to give details. Nothing. A bullet proof 7 doesn't say much about the architectural details.

Doak and Fazio have both produced excellent courses and both have produced dogs. But BS like these outlandish indictments of those who may appreciate High Pointe.....weak generalizations.....an inability to articulate architectural virtues, or lack of virtues, doesn't help either architect's reputation and the appreciation for good golf design.

Don
Check out High Pointe.....I'd love to get your opinion.....pro and con. Here is the profile I've discovered from GCA. Maybe it was profiled so Mr.Morrissett would get an invite to Archipalooza.    

I think this profile may be a window into David's architecural tastes and the opposite tastes of those who find courses like High Pointe and Rustic Canyon interesting.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/highpointe000165.html

[Doug Wright]

David W,

Just curious--what features of High Pointe have been reduced over the years? I've heard the grass is different but is there anything else?

All the Best,

[David Wigler]

Frank,

You still have avoided my question but you mention Rustic Canyon again.  Are you hoping to sound smart by mentioning a course that highly discussed?  Why are you so insistent that I did not like Rustic Canyon?  Who are you?  Why do you feel comfortable using a nickname used by friends like Shooter, Stettner, and Conley?  What are your architectural credentials that you feel so comfortable personally attacking mine?  Do you work in the golf business?  Do you know how to read, since you never want to answer any questions?  I actually wrote a quite extensive piece on Flint Hills last year.  I also wrote a detailed hole-by-hole review of High Pointe and got into a lengthy discussion with Tom Doak over it on a thread of match play between High Pointe and Victoria National (Coincidentally another Fazio that you have probably never played but would bash given your love for blind Fazio bashing).  Figure out the archives and you can read my detailed architectural opinion of both courses.  

I do not think dissing Doak and praising Fazio takes balls.  I think Flint Hills is a superior course to High Pointe.  In fact, Golf Digest had Flint as the best new course in the country while High Pointe did not make the top 25 in Michigan.  In fact, Golfweek had Flint Hills National in their top 100 in the country and High Point did not make their best in Michigan (I think - I cannot find state-by-state).  My opinion is very mainstream and not gutsy at all.  What is your issue with Flint Hills National?  Can I assume from your lack of an answer that you have never played the course?  Do you even know where the course is or is your opinion based on TV?  I am sure, given your previous response, that you will again use personal attacks and avoid answering whether you have played Flint, feel it is better than High Pointe, and why you think you know my opinions and me.  If that is the case, I am done discussing it with you.

[John_McMillan]

Re High Pointe -

I've played the course at least once a year from its opening to the present, more in the last couple of years.  

Tom Doak replaced High Pointe with Stonewall in the "Gourmet Choice" in his second edition of TCG, which was a little bit before he gave up tabulating the Golf Magazine ratings.  I don't think that Doak feels that High Pointe belongs in the top-100 any more than the raters who have stopped voting for it.  Price-wise, High Pointe is about where it was on its opening.  They've had a large turnover in managers of the course, and as many visions for how the course should be marketed, so there have been lots of short-term variations with no real long-term trends.

The entire course used to be fescue (tees, greens, fairways, rough).  In the mid-90s, the course made a decision to change to bent greens, to compete prestige-wise with the higher dollar courses around TC.  The current course is all fescue, with the exception of the greens.  

Some of the trees around the landing area of the fifth hole were lost - which opens up some of the driving options on that hole.  The hill on the tenth hole which protruded from the left into the middle of the fairway was flattened.  The slopes around the eleventh green were also changed to accomodate a cart path around the green.  The slopes behind and to the left of the green are not as severe as they used to be.  The tees for the eighteenth hole have been repositioned about a dozen times, but nothing really works there that doesn't make the hole (i) too hard for the bogey golfer and (ii) too easy for the scratch golfer.  There have been changes to the course, but in their sum, they're pretty subtle unless you're looking hard for them.  

[Craig Van Egmond]

Frank,

    I accept the fact that David wouldn't recommend High Pointe and that there is also some truth that certain architects do get a free pass here, but I think it has more to do with the style of architecture they create and not for free invites. I still highly recommend the first 17 holes of High Pointe to anyone.  

   However the arguement about Golf Digest rating Flint best new private is weak at best. Sandpines in Oregon was the best new public course one year and Kingsley Club didn't make the list.  Go figure.

    I wouldn't however recommend Bay Harbor to anyone, not even as an example of bad architecture or wasted potential. I think it was rated in the top 5 in Michigan. A huge waste of time and money. Play Belvedere 4 or 5 times for that money and have a blast.

    

[Craig Van Egmond]

Just for the record, I was not bashing Flint, I'm sure its a fine course, just one of the arguments to support it.  I've never seen it and I wouldn't presume to comment on it.

[Frank Pellegrino]

David
Bla..Bla..Bla..Bla..Bla..Bla.......when all fails pull out the Fazio bashing card. This has nothing to do with Fazio or Doak, this has to do with your ability to recognize decent architecture when you see it.

Flint Hills....one of the more forgetable golf courses. Sorry Tommy Devlin...you're a good man.

Wide fairways without a single internal hazard and utterly lacking any interesting natural movement. Beautifully framed by fescue and good-looking bunkers, unfortunately both are largely out of play.....grip it and rip it, mindless, strategy impared golf....over and over and over and over again. The most memorable holes feature man-made water hazards....yawn....and they ain't so memorable. Five one shotters, three with water....forgetable. Greens are above average...slightly. There is not a single standout hole among the eighteen...bad sign. A bullet-proof bore.

By the way no one cares what Golf, Golf Digest or Golf Week have to say....easy for you to hide behind.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Will,
  I found Diamond Springs to be VERY enjoyable. The way the course is maintained is very unique, with everything being mowed at one height(Tees, fairways and colars) The cross bunkers on #4, #11 and #16 are all farther than the eye thinks. There are many risk/reward holes and many different ways to play many holes. #5 has a green that is awesome...much contour. #9, #14-18 all run along the ravine and match any set of holes in the area. The greens on #11, 12 and 13 have some growing to do, but all in all, and course you will not be disappointed in. The clubhouse is also really cool and fitting to the golf course. E-mail me if you need directions there. I'd also look into playing Thousand Oaks, and Rees Jones course that opened in 2000. Big sprawling golf course that feels like Northern Michigan and I'd also look into playing DeVries' other course, Pilgrim's Run, about a half hour north of Grand Rapids. Both were rated #4 best new affordable in the yearss they opened.

[K.Hegland]

Tony,
Man, did you just comment on the clubhouse?  I know I have to give you a hard time once in awhile.  Glad to hear you enjoyed your Devriesathon, good for you.  You better plan on playing Plattalia when I come and visit the great north, as far as I know Mr. Krause will have it opened for the 4th of July, I won't be able to make the grand opening, but I'll use my one and only guest pass to get you on when I'm up in late Aug, or early Sept., can't wait.

Regards
Kyle

[Tim weiman]

David Wigler:

I wouldn't hesitate to recommend Pacific Grove to anyone visiting Monterey even if money were no object.  Sure, half the course isn't worth the visit, but the other half is like I said, really fun.  I make this recommendation having already sampled all the prominent Monterey courses, most on multiple occasions.

Would I fly from Cleveland to Monterey to play Pacific Grove?  Obviously not.  But, if I'm there, I know I'll have an enjoyable time.

As for High Pointe, I'm sure any architect starting out would want to build the best course possible.  But, I think you are being unfair not to credit Tom Doak on the issue of cost.  Don't you think the original design, approach to construction and Tom's ideas for maintenance had affordability in mind?

[John Lyon]

Don, I would have never thought that I would see Mitchell Creek referenced on this esteemed site .  If it rains the day before you may need to bring your waders.  I would suggest that you take your grandson to the back nine at Elmbrook (short, lots of hills and more interesting greens).  

By the way, I have 11 year old sons and they love playing Kingsley.  Take your grandson there in the evening (almost no one is there) and he will love the hills, the sand and the green complexes (they really facinate my kids versus my southern Michigan Country Club).  

[David Wigler]

Tim,

I have no idea what Doak's construction budget was at High Pointe or how it compares to its contemporaries.  I would imagine Pacific Grove was built for a cost (In comparable dollars) that is nowhere near Cypress, Pebble, etc.  If High Pointe was built on the cheap and designed for the low cost round, then I stand corrected.

Frank,

You said it all in your final sentence "By the way no one cares what Golf, Golf Digest or Golf Week have to say....easy for you to hide behind."  

You are obviously correct.  You know more than the 200 Golfweek Raters, the 800 Golf Digest Raters and Tom Fazio.  I bow down to your superior knowledge.  Please post on this DG when your magazine "Frank on Golf" starts publication.  I promise to read it weekly to learn how I can be as smart as you.  You still did not answer if you played the course or if you know me.  You still did not answer why you think you know my opinion of Rustic Canyon.  Now I understand.  You are above all of us and do not need to be trifled with the questions of mere golf mortals.  I will request that Ran immediately make you Doyen to identify your superior knowledge so we all know to read your opinions with the proper respect.  I apologize for disagreeing with you.  I will try to be smarter next time.  Please send me a listing of all of the course you like and dislike so I can change my opinions to match.

[Nick_Ficorelli]

If your staying in the Traverse city area and prefer not to travel to far you should play High Pte. and Lockenheath and know you played the 2 best in the immediate area.

[Paul Turner]

A question about High Pointe, I haven't been there:

Which hole is shown in the Confidential Guide (Gourmet section)? It looks a beautiful, natural hole.

[John_McMillan]

Paul -

The photo in TCG is of the thirteenth hole at High Pointe.  The photo doesn't show much of the green complex, which falls away to the left and rear of the green.  

[John Lyon]

Nick F., I have not played Lockenheath but I know two that have.  One was a Pro who called the course beautiful but the architecture goofy.  And a sub novice that said it was the best course in the area.   I'll have to give it a try based on your recommendation.  From the layout it appears to be a good walking course (allowed?).  Is it a course that you would love to play everyday and not feel like you've been beat up (like "once in a while is great" Arcadia Bluffs)?