[Doug Wright]

Those of us Americans who have been fortunate enough to make a trip or two to the British Isles have been spoiled by the quality of the golf there. And we often hear of the quality of the off-the-beaten path courses that we don't get to--the courses found in many of the small towns there.

We know there are many, many bad Doak scale 0 golf courses here in the States. I don't think I've ever heard of any truly bad golf courses in the British Isles. Sure I've heard that Old Head doesn't live up to expectations, but that doesn't mean it's truly bad like [Insert Name of Godawful Muny Here] So...

Are the golf courses all decent there in the British Isles, or are there any that are, in the words of Dan Aykroyd's affected Saturday Night Live character Leonard Pinth-Garnell, "Exquisitely bad" and "Really bite the big one" ?        

[Tom_Doak]

If there are any, they were probably built by American designers.  I haven't seen one, though.

[Paul_Turner]

Doug

There are lots and lots of plain, dull, low budget courses in GB&I but I don't think these qualify as a Doak 0.  More like 1 and 2's on Tom's scale.

Some of the modern American designed courses are incredibly ugly (like The Oxfordshire) but even those aren't a 0 because the land wasn't much to start with.

I don't know what the land was like before Nicklaus built his Gleneagles course.  Is that a possible 0 given the beauty of the site?  Was the land really good like the Kings and Queens?

[Sean_A]

I don't think I have ever seen a 0 - probably because I don't believe any such animal exists.  Paul is right, there are plenty of dull, give it a miss at any price courses.  Even on these duds, usually there are one or two holes which can't fail to impress.  

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

Sean:

To get a "0" you can't just have a dull course, you have to spend a lot of money to build a course that really stinks.

The closest I've seen (in pictures) is The Oxfordshire.  A flat site is not an exemption ... if the course "should not have been built at all," that's the definition.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

I think I've only seen one Doak 0...possibly two.

They are as rare as 10's, but in a masochistic way, just as much fun to play....

Once.

[Bill_McBride]

I slipped away one afternoon in Blanford Forum in Dorset and played the local there.  It was nothing special and it rained.  I still had a great time because of the two local guys I played with and had a couple of pints with afterward.  

Maybe it's not all about the courses but a lot about the golf experience itself.  

[Padraig Dooley]

There are atrocious and ghastly golf courses in the British Isles, I've played plenty of them.

As has been mentioned, mainly 1's or 2's on the Doak scale, probably only one which I'd give a 0, but as Sean mentioned even that one had one impressive hole.

[Dan King]

The beauty in the British Isles is many of the lesser courses are also cheap. Hard to complain about a course when it costs £2 and you only drop it into the honesty box.

I've never seen anything like The Ranch in the British Isles, the closest I've ever seen to a definition of a Doak zero. $100 for crap is why it is a zero. Make it $10 and it isn't worth complaining about.

Cheers,
Dan King

The Ranch Golf Course in San Jose offers a challenging championship golf course in a spectacular setting of rolling hills, lush oak-filled canyons, lakes & creeks, and majestic views beyond the countryside to downtown San Jose and the San Francisco skyline. This picture perfect course is the centerpiece of a masterplanned luxury home community.
 --The Ranch Web site

[Jay Flemma]

The K Club?

[jeffwarne]

Sure there are, but with hundreds of good to great ones, and with access rarely a problem, why would you play them?

I've played a couple of courses Doak rated as 2's over there that I absolutely loved (Dunaverty,Shiskine, Carradale), and plenty of 6's here that I hated, so I've learned to consult websites and other sources as either he and I have different tastes (which normally isn't the case when using the CG), courses have changed, or he simply flew thru on a fast walk thru on a crappy day.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Oxfordshire is not terrible, it is just to American.  I did play for fun a little course not to far from The Berkshire.  It was dreadful.  But it wasn't supposed to be anything but what it was.  As for the others, I have played 180 course in GB&I and would go back to almost all of them in a heart beat.  But there are so many others to play that I generally don't.

[ward peyronnin]

Doug

I hate to be specific because i played at the behest of my 10 and 12 yr old jr associates but Falkland's  (Fife)Muni is truly bad. Drop 1lub 50 in the box and you play around a commons stretched around the sewer treatment plant, literraly over a rugby/soccer pitch thru the goals, and over a farmers field on a dogleg left. The greens had 70% grass coverage and ran a 5 stimp and no sand in the bunkers but it was a place kids could play all day long . U asked for it.

Ward

[Chris Cupit]

Yeah, there are bad ones--at least one I can attest to.  What was even worse is that the R&A used it as the second course for their Amateur Championship

The second course for the '99 Amateur at Royal County Down was a place called Kilkeel (I think I spelled it correctly).  The story I heard was that it was a 9 hole course that someone felt obliged to jam 9 more holes onto--an absolute piece of crap.

One hole was an 80 degree dogleg left.  Through the fairway was a hazard that continued all along the right side of a fairway that fell away from you as the hole went up a steep hill to the left.

Forest of spindly, sick looking trees protected the inside of the hole.  Second shot was blind and uphill with the hazard just off the right edge of the green.  

Stategic choices were:
1.  Say "to hell with it" and try to drive up and over the trees near the green  (I think the hole was 360 yards or so and less if you could cut the dogleg)
2.  Try and hook a 2-4 iron around the corner knowing that straight was in the hazard and hope to give yourself a wedge into the green.
3.  Two 7 irons

AWFUL.

For a while I thought it was unfair since either the day before or after you had just played RCD and to experience this place within 24 hours of something as great as RCD could lead to some serious mental instability .

There were other bad holes but thankfully I can't remember them!

Lest anyone think I played bad and this is sour grapes, I did shoot 72 on tht course and manage to make match play that year--Kilkeel is a truly bad course in the British Isles

[Adrian_Stiff]

A lot of people like The Oxfordshire, and a lot of people lust to play the K Club; so this is just opinion and in some respects this forum represents the minority opinion.

I love minimal courses and tradition, but there are 43 golf courses in my county and Painswick is one of them, if you did a poll it might get #1 by GCA but about #33 by the majority. Local clubs often can't get teams to go and play there, those same golfers would love to play The Oxfordshire.

Of course there are bad courses but they fit the purpose and are often beginners courses, or just low budget.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Ring of Kerry - needs to be redesigned to bring it up to a Doak "0" !

JC

[Mark Pearce]

I thought Moor Allerton was pretty atrocious.  Not sure if it's quite a zero, however.  What's worse is that the club sold a Mackenzie to build this monstrosity elsewhere.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ring of Kerry - needs to be redesigned to bring it up to a Doak "0" !

JC

is it really that bad?... i'd heard bad things alright... looks like a decent bit of property...

[JESII]

Yeah, there are bad ones--at least one I can attest to.  What was even worse is that the R&A used it as the second course for their Amateur Championship

The second course for the '99 Amateur at Royal County Down was a place called Kilkeel (I think I spelled it correctly).  The story I heard was that it was a 9 hole course that someone felt obliged to jam 9 more holes onto--an absolute piece of crap.

One hole was an 80 degree dogleg left.  Through the fairway was a hazard that continued all along the right side of a fairway that fell away from you as the hole went up a steep hill to the left.

Forest of spindly, sick looking trees protected the inside of the hole.  Second shot was blind and uphill with the hazard just off the right edge of the green.  

Stategic choices were:
1.  Say "to hell with it" and try to drive up and over the trees near the green  (I think the hole was 360 yards or so and less if you could cut the dogleg)
2.  Try and hook a 2-4 iron around the corner knowing that straight was in the hazard and hope to give yourself a wedge into the green.
3.  Two 7 irons

AWFUL.

For a while I thought it was unfair since either the day before or after you had just played RCD and to experience this place within 24 hours of something as great as RCD could lead to some serious mental instability .

There were other bad holes but thankfully I can't remember them!

Lest anyone think I played bad and this is sour grapes, I did shoot 72 on tht course and manage to make match play that year--Kilkeel is a truly bad course in the British Isles

I was thinking about only this course (played the same time as you...) since I saw this thread last night.

Dreadful!

I wonder if Matthew Hunt ever goes down there...

[Phil McDade]

Sure there are, but with hundreds of good to great ones, and with access rarely a problem, why would you play them?

I've played a couple of courses Doak rated as 2's over there that I absolutely loved (Dunaverty,Shiskine, Carradale), and plenty of 6's here that I hated, so I've learned to consult websites and other sources as either he and I have different tastes (which normally isn't the case when using the CG), courses have changed, or he simply flew thru on a fast walk thru on a crappy day.

I've played both Dunaverty and Shiskine, and I'd rate both much higher than a 2 on the Doak scale, if for no other reason than the views and the closeness one feels between the links and the nearby sea. They are both what the Brits would call sporting, and are full of quirky, blind and unconventional holes, but to me that makes them all the more attractive as an alternative to the length and toughness (and sometimes dullness) that comes with a top-tier, championship course.

I once played a little nine-holer in the Scottish Highlands town of Inverary that was pretty darn dull, soggy, and unremarkable. But even that course had a couple holes of merit, and the setting -- overlooking Loch Fyne, in one of the prettiest Scottish towns around -- was hard to beat.

[Gib_Papazian]

Yes. Royal Troon. Take out #7,8,11 and 18 and the rest of the golf course is a deadly dull slog and certainly not worth wasting a day when you could play an extra round at infinitely fascinating Prestwick.

Actually, #7,8 and 11 are not all that interesting - there are 1000 better holes in Scotland - they just seem decent by comparison to the rest.

If The Ranch is going to be the standard by which we measure putrid, ill-conceived architorture, then there is no course in the U.K. that meets the standard because nobody is stupid (read: greedy) enough to try and build a golf course on a goat ranch.

However, I would much rather spin around the Portland Course at Troon and retire to the local pub than suffer through another mind-numbing battle against boredom and a 73 MPH wind all the damned way back to the clubhouse without a single interesting thing to look at except a fat Scottish lady walking her dog.

Notice I stated apres golf would be in a local pub, as I would rather eat cold Haggis for breakfast than go into that assh*le factory and get the stink eye from Monty's father and the rest of the chain smoking cranks who glare out the clubhouse window at Americans dumb enough to pay good money to get treated like dirt on the lamest course in the championship rota.

 

[Robin_Hiseman]

The Skeynes Course at Edenbridge Golf Club is by far the worst golf course I have ever had the misfortune to play.  18 identical, small upturned saucer greens, endlessly repetitive parallel fairways caged in by thousands of saplings.  

After about eight holes I was losing the will to live.  

The only redeeming feature was.....no, sorry I can't think of any.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Yes. Royal Troon. Take out #7,8,11 and 18 and the rest of the golf course is a deadly dull slog and certainly not worth wasting a day when you could play an extra round at infinitely fascinating Prestwick.

Actually, #7,8 and 11 are not all that interesting - there are 1000 better holes in Scotland - they just seem decent by comparison to the rest.

If The Ranch is going to be the standard by which we measure putrid, ill-conceived architorture, then there is no course in the U.K. that meets the standard because nobody is stupid (read: greedy) enough to try and build a golf course on a goat ranch.

However, I would much rather spin around the Portland Course at Troon and retire to the local pub than suffer through another mind-numbing battle against boredom and a 73 MPH wind all the damned way back to the clubhouse without a single interesting thing to look at except a fat Scottish lady walking her dog.

Notice I stated apres golf would be in a local pub, as I would rather eat cold Haggis for breakfast than go into that assh*le factory and get the stink eye from Monty's father and the rest of the chain smoking cranks who glare out the clubhouse window at Americans dumb enough to pay good money to get treated like dirt on the lamest course in the championship rota.

 

Gib, that 73mph must have affected your eyes. I think there are many great holes at Troon, as you say the best bit is around the turn, but the other holes are not "truly bad".13 is wonderfull, 17 a real tough three, 9 and 10 are great holes, perhaps a bit too quiurky in some respects; and the 4-8 stretch. I'd say only 1, 2 and 3 are perhaps a bit dull or similar. I was there a few weeks ago, the condition was great, the green fee was £200 and it was the busiest of the 10 courses I visited around that area. I agree Prestwick is more a must play.

[tlavin]

Yes. Royal Troon. Take out #7,8,11 and 18 and the rest of the golf course is a deadly dull slog and certainly not worth wasting a day when you could play an extra round at infinitely fascinating Prestwick.

Actually, #7,8 and 11 are not all that interesting - there are 1000 better holes in Scotland - they just seem decent by comparison to the rest.

If The Ranch is going to be the standard by which we measure putrid, ill-conceived architorture, then there is no course in the U.K. that meets the standard because nobody is stupid (read: greedy) enough to try and build a golf course on a goat ranch.

However, I would much rather spin around the Portland Course at Troon and retire to the local pub than suffer through another mind-numbing battle against boredom and a 73 MPH wind all the damned way back to the clubhouse without a single interesting thing to look at except a fat Scottish lady walking her dog.

Notice I stated apres golf would be in a local pub, as I would rather eat cold Haggis for breakfast than go into that assh*le factory and get the stink eye from Monty's father and the rest of the chain smoking cranks who glare out the clubhouse window at Americans dumb enough to pay good money to get treated like dirt on the lamest course in the championship rota.

 

I hereby nominate this as one of the Top 100 posts ever on gca.com

[Mark Pearce]

How about the Bracken at Woodhall Spa?  Fairways like fields.  Silly, upturned greens.  Featureless.  Certainly the greatest gap between quality of first and second courses I have ever seen but the Bracken is held out as being half decent.

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