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Mike_Cirba

Joe may have some pics of that map he might wish to share. 

The copy I have unfortunately doesn't show the "erased" 17th very well, but perhaps Joe has a better pic available.

Joe Bausch

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Ok, here are some pics of this Alan Corson version drawing of Cobb's.   Again, we don't know the date of this yet.  But it sure is interesting!

Here is the full view:



Yardages:



Signature:



Zoom on the par 3 #14:



Zoom on #3 and #4:



Zoom on #5 and #12:



And finally, perhaps the part of the map that screams out the most right now is shown by this pic, showing the "erased" 17th hole:

@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Mike_Cirba

As we try to pin down the date of this map, one thing that seems true is that it was a "working" map, and had some hand drawing on it.   

For instance, the locations of the old 9th and 13th greens are moved slightly, there is a very short line of the par three 12th playing from over by  the location of the 5th green (that was seemingly never built), but the strangest thing of all is;

All of the other hand-drawn changes still reflect the stick and ball routing technique.

If you look closely, the 17th is drawn out in more detail, showing tee, a rectangular or oval fairway, and greensite.   

So, this was not a hole that was on the original drawing or it would have been just the stick and ball.   It seems to me to be a hole that was drawn in later...perhaps in the 20s when the hole was actually created?

However, that begs the question of whether the 5th green was ever up on the hill?   I suspect not, but why it's on this seemingly more recent drawing is a mystery.


also...

At the time of this drawing, the old 15th was seemingly being shortened to 315 yards (from 365) and the 11th was shortened to 517 yards (from 570).   

This map definitely is sometime after the Vogdes map, and it all makes sense...except the 5th green and the 6th tee..
« Last Edit: February 25, 2008, 03:31:14 PM by MPCirba »

mike_malone

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 Mike,

   Your observations about #11 and #15 are interesting. It seems that in both instances the steep hills would have been very punishing from the initial yardages discussed.Those yardages match up to a list you provided way back around page 10.

« Last Edit: February 25, 2008, 04:08:11 PM by michael_malone »
AKA Mayday

Joe Bausch

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Some people have indicated the 'erased 17th' isn't obvious in the above pic.  Here is the erased portion in ink:

@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
At the time of this drawing, the old 15th was seemingly being shortened to 315 yards (from 365) and the 11th was shortened to 517 yards (from 570).   

Mike, doesn't it make sense that this drawing is an attempt to reroute the course and delete the original 14th and add the 17th?  This would explain, I think, shortening the original 15th as the walk would be awfully far to the original tee after the 14th was extracted.  Also, I think the change of yardage at the original 11th is just a more accurate measurement of the distance.  Google Earth shows it right around 520 no matter how generous you make the dogleg(s).  And we also know the original 13th yardage is 'corrected' in the drawing to around 540, which is the yardage Google Earth gives from either of the tees (the original or the 'other tee' that the drawing also shows).

Also, look closely at the zoomed yardage pic.  You can see numbers next to the holes for the re-routed course.  Maybe not all of them, but many of them.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2008, 10:36:00 PM by Joe Bausch »
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Mike_Cirba

Joe,

I agree with you, although I still have some unanswered questions that I'm studying, as well.   

I'm seriously betting that this was the map being used about 1926-28 when #17 was created.   On the other hand, I can't explain the location of #5 green or 6 tee.   That's just bizarrely funky.

But, while we're at it, I'm thinking that we need to create a membership standard for the "Friends of Cobb's Creek".   

Frankly, I think we're missing a huge opportunity to influence worldwide retro fashion if we don't unanimously vote the bowler hat as our standard meeting wear.  ;D




Geoffrey_Walsh

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Just returned from a business trip and I need some time to absorb these new finds.

The only thing I have to say about the Corson routing is WOW.  If you Google Corson it brings up the old Juniata site with a quote from in as chief engineer in 1925 so we know he was in the position at that point.  My best guess on the changes is that flooding caused the moves of the 5th green, 6th tee and 14th hole which in turn caused the other changes mentioned by Joe.  I think the 17th hole was drawn in by someone later, but who knows why it was erased...

Mike - I am making a trip for the Bowlers.  What's your hat size?

Mike_Cirba

Geoffrey,

Corson was Jesse Vogdes's assistant when Cobb's was opened in 1916.  We're trying to determine exactly when he took over and the earliest reference we have to date is 1919.   Also, he was still around when FDR (League Island) opened in 1940, and I have a picture of that opening (he and Edward Clarey designed that course).

I'm dubious as to whether the 5th green/6th tee were ever placed where they are on that blueprint.  None of the aerials after 1928 show it there, so that would almost mean it would have had to have been there originally, yet we know the Vogdes drawing shows the 5th green in its  current spot.

I don't think flooding was the issue, because the "moved" 5th green in the Corson blueprint is still adjacent to the creek...just further along below today's 7th tee.

Joe has speculated that the Corson map was just him trying to see what changes he could make to speed play.

I would generally agree that it's likely, and would only add that I think it's in response to continued complaining about the long walk to the 18th tee, and agree with you that someone (Ab Smith?  Corson?) drew today's 17th over the top of it as an ideal solution.

I believe we'll learn more when Joe gets through the microfiche for 1926-27 and we finally learn about the creation of today's 17th.

***modified***

If you really think about where the 5th tee and green are located on the Corson drawing, it would have almost been an "Alps" type hole, except your approach would be largely blind to a green set alongside the creek (on the left) with the land around running sharply right to left towards the creek.

That would have been brutally difficult.   

The only thing that's sticking in my mind is that we know the 5th hole has measured 400 yards since the very beginning. 

Yet, we know that the 1915 map of Vogdes had yardages on a number of holes seemingly estimated and generally overstated, and that by the time yardages were announced in 1917, they reflected EXACTLY what's listed on the Corson drawing (presumably some years later).

In fact, the Corson drawing is rather fastidious in documenting exact yardage.

Yet, if the tee for 5 is where we think it was, the hole would only be about 340 yards to today's green.

Joe sent me a drawing with the tee back in the corner towards 17 to show how it might have been 400 yards, but I have yet to see aerial evidence of that tee's existence back then.

So, there's more to learn.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2008, 10:36:16 AM by MPCirba »

TEPaul

I see you guys have some old ink on some of the top women players of Philly from back in that day. Have any of you guys seen Helen Hicks? I think she was considered to be ultra-HOT----sort of the Natalie Gulbis of her day! One time Helen and Max Marston played Pine Valley and Helen didn't have much of a day shooting something like 91. But the odd thing was both Helen and Max were pretty fast players but somehow the club sort of lost track of them that day and they reached the final green something like 7 1/2 hours after they started. No one knows what happened but Helen did say when she teed off on #15 she just felt completely worn out and for that reason her game just went to hell on the last four holes.

Mike_Cirba

Tom,

Dorothy Campbell Hurd was certainly a fairly attractive lass in her prime.



On the other hand, Helen Hicks likely had to tie Max Marston to a tree based on this picture.




Plus, we know Dorothy Campbell Hurd played at Cobb's Creek. 

The historical record is less clear on Ms. Hicks and whether she ever had the pleasure, 7.5 hours or not.

On the other hand, Dorothy Campbell Hurd had the grave misfortune of being run over by a locomotive at age 61, so it's all moot.

wsmorrison

Eeeew, I wouldn't play Helen Hicks with your putter, Tom.

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Here's another photo of Hurd, from a 1924 Philly Ledger article.  Was she a lefty?  The photo would suggest so.

@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Mike_Cirba

Here's a wild one, guys...

I just realized that during the Daily News Opens in the 1950's, Cobb's Creek played to a par of 68, with back to back par threes on 16 & 17.

The course played 4, 4, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4, 3, 4   then 4, 4, 4, 4, 5, 4, 3, 3, 4

Arnold Palmer shot a 10 over 78 in 1955, and the winner was 1 over 273.

Is it any wonder??   Sheesh...


Bill Hagel

They probably played 16 from todays forward tees - making that hole about - what 240?

Mike_Cirba

Bill,

I was out there today walking around with the ghosts  In case you've never done it, I highly recommend walking along being the sole person on 125 acres of land.   

From the front tee 16 would be about 215 or so, I believe. 

I wanted to see how 13 would play, and what options might be available.   I'll try to post some this weekend as I took a number of pics.

Mike_Cirba

More on Ab Smith;

In H.B. Martin's 1936 book, the seminal "Fifty years of American Golf":

"Ab Smith, referred to above as winning the medal in the first Philadelphia championship, was not content with this honor and went on to win the title.  He was regarded as the Bobby Jones of his day, although records do not reveal that he made any "grand slams" or even "little slams".

"The slang word "Birdie" originated in 1899 on the Atlantic City Country Club course, a popular week-end spot for Philadelphians.  Ab Smith tells the story.  "The second hole was a par four, about 350 yards long.  I was playing in a three-ball match with George A. Crump and my brother William P. Smith, both of whom passed on.  My drive of 185 yards was to the left giving me the diagonal of the green to play for.  The green was guarded by a ditch and a cop bunker.  I banged away with my second shot, and my ball - it was one of the new Haskels - came to rest within six inches of the cup.  I said to George Crump "that was a bird of a shot and here I only get a paltry sum from each of you.  Hereafter, I suggest that when one of us plays a hole in one under par that he receive double compensation, and this goes for everyone in the match including partners.  The other two agreed and we began right away, just as soon as the next one came, to call it a "birdie".  Naturally, 'eagle' was the result when one scored two under par and then later came the 'double-eagle'."

"Ab Smith was one of three men who made the final decision on the location of the Pine Valley Golf Club.  He has built several courses and has of late years been interested in public links."

Geoffrey_Walsh

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I have a feeling that the camera shy champion played a very large role in the creation of Cobb's.

Mike_Cirba

I have a feeling that the camera shy champion played a very large role in the creation of Cobb's.

Geoffrey,

He certainly did and at least two articles said essentially that Ab Smith and Hugh Wilson were the "chief architects of Cobb's Creek", and it seems to me that the differentiation the authors used to elevate these two above the others who were involved was the amount of time both put in during the construction phases.

For instance, one article shortly after opening mentions that Hugh Wilson put in six months on the project and Ab Smith gave up all of his Sundays for the duration, so this wasn't just a "paper job" for these two, at least, and seemingly not with Klauder, as well.

But even the contemporaneous article with the "bust" drawing of Ab Smith we located last year from the time that the course was under construction (do you have the ability to post that here?) indicated that he was simply one of "several who laid-out...Cobb's Creek", and we know from other contemporaneous accounts that the others were Wilson, Klauder, Crump, Meehan, and that George Wilson and Walter Travis helped to some degree as well during the construction phase.

By the time this book was written (in 1936), Ab Smith had already;

1) Did most of the design renovation and upgrading of the original Huntingdon Valley course over the period of almost a decade.

2) Co-designed Cobb's Creek with the others

3) Helped Hugh Wilson, WIlliam Flynn, and Franklin Meehan with the significant upgrading renovation of North Hills.

4) Designed Karakung with Alan Corson

5) Located the sites (with Hugh Wilson) for the Juniata course and League Island courses (now FDR GC)

6) Was almost certainly co-designer of Juniata with Alan Corson (and Hugh Wilson and Franklin Meehan??)

7) Likely is the one who designed the "new" 17th at Cobb's Creek given his ongoing involvement.

8) Probably had some hand in the creation of Walnut Lane and FDR, which both opened between 35 and 40.

9) Claimed to have helped with the design of Pine Valley.

Smith died in 1940, and its great that we're finally getting to tell the story of this two-time PHiladelphia Amateur champion who did so much for public golf and for early golf course architecture!! 
« Last Edit: March 01, 2008, 09:28:08 AM by MPCirba »

Mike_Cirba

Came across something interesting today.

The annexation of 15-20 acres by the US Army didn't take place during World War II.

Instead, it took place during the Cold War, around 1952 or thereafter.   It wasn't to shoot down Japanese or German fighters but to try and stop a Soviet fighter with a nuclear payload!!  It had been located in the nearby neighborhood of Manoa, but evidently the protesting hue and cry there had it relocated to Cobbs.

From an editorial in the Stroudsburg, PA newspaper "Daily Record"  in November, 1952;

There Comes a Time

Official pronouncement, somewhat delayed, covering the latest explosion at Eniwetok must make any thinking person realize that whether we like it or not, we are living in an era when mass destruction of great cities throughout the world is entirely possible.

This uneasy acceptance of an undeniable fact does not suggest that tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock an enemy bomber will drop an A-bomb or even an H-bomb over the Stroudsburgs to reduce the region to rubble and destroy their populations.

But it does suggest we must never relax for one minute our training and equipping of forces designed to keep any potential enemy from attempting an attack on our homeland.  For enemy, obviously, read Russia.

Philadelphia has given evidence that it does not wholly concur in this analysis, for just this week we learn that the Fairmount Park Commission has decided to locate an Army anti-Aircraft battery near the Cobbs Creek golf course, ending a series of protests from residents that have kept the battery on a constant jump looking for a hew location. Seemingly, the battery sent to Philadelphia to aid in defense of that city should an enemy attack arrive is unwanted, for residents in its present area along the West Chester pike managed to order it evicted from that site on 90 days notice. But when it was planned to move it to the Overbrook area, citizens of that section set up a loud howl of protest.


wsmorrison

1) Did most of the design renovation and upgrading of the original Huntingdon Valley course over the period of almost a decade.

William Flynn was redesigning the original 18th at Huntingdon Valley (Noble, PA) as early as October 30, 1923.  I don't know if Flynn did other redesign work there, but I would be interested to know what Smith did.  Can you tell me?

Mike_Cirba

Wayne,

It should be all in what I sent you in my CC History "thesis" ;) , but Ab Smith's work at the original HVGC was well before 1923. 

From the document;

In February of 1909, Tillinghast reported in detail on the work that Ab Smith and his Green Committee at Huntingdon Valley had done to make the course more challenging;

The members of the Green Committee out at Huntingdon Valley have been working like beavers, determined to improve the conditions and gradually develop a championship course. Huntingdon Valley has always required "more playing" than any other; of our Philadelphia courses and the improvements there cannot but help raise the standard of Philadelphia golf. In brief summary, the work has been along the following lines:

The small creek has been dammed (two "m"s) making a wide and deep hazard for the drive at the second hole, where the green has also been guarded by pits on both sides. Deep pits divide the third and fourth fair greens near the third green, and at the sixth the approach to the green from the left is rendered more difficult by reason of yawning sand holes.

All of the bunkers have been deepened (notably at seven and seventeen) and running through is now quite impossible. A new hazard appears before the ninth green, which is also guarded from the left by three pits. The short tenth hole is rendered more difficult, as the rather treacherous green is now bounded by three pits on the left, another guarding the right where in the past a rather indifferent drive might at times find the roll to the green. A water hazard appears before the tee, but this danger is rather more imaginary than real. New pits have been placed on twelve (for a slice) and also between the thirteenth and seventh fair greens. No longer will it be possible to run up your approach on fourteen; and the mashie (which is quite at a premium at Huntingdon Valley) must serve us again in negotiating the fifteenth where the tin is close up to the new water hazard. The long sixteenth has been slightly shortened by moving up the tee close to the creek.

Altogether the changes have been most judicious and the course is better in every respect. As the course now stands the twelfth hole is probably the most exacting, and a very pretty problem it presents. I hope that the committee will eventually modify the fourth—a short, blind hole, which is
hardly worthy of a place among the other seventeen.

In May of 1912, Tillinghast reported again in “American Golfer” of Ab Smith’s design efforts intended to toughen up the Huntingdon Valley golf course in an effort to challenge and develop better players;

“Some time ago, soon after the placing of the numerous new pits at Huntingdon Valley, one of the members approached the chairman of the green committee and timorously said: "You don't intend to put in any more pits, do you?" The reply was prompt and to the point. "Any more pits? Why as yet we have only started to scratch the ground." Now that's the kind of talk which every true golfer loves to hear, and while there may be some "players of skittles" who at first hold up their hands in horror, yet in the end they too must admit that the pits have not only elevated the general standard of golf but also made them play a better individual game.”

“Tell it not in Gath—but only the other day I actually heard one who at first strenuously opposed the new pits, praising and defending them in his efforts to convert a doubting Thomas. It would be difficult to convince a small boy that it is very necessary for him to learn his multiplication tables—and very often the figures have to be forced into his system with the aid of a bed-slat, but when the boy grows up he knows why.”

“In nearly every instance when I ask concerning the condition of this or that course I am told that they are making out new pits. Let the good work continue, gentlemen, and as you develop real golfers, blessings will be the reward of the intelligent digger of pits.”

"Far and Sure" wrote in 1912;

“One thing will be noted by visitors from other cities whether they play over such excellent eighteen hole courses as Huntingdon Valley and the Philadelphia Cricket Clubs as representing the larger organizations or the two dozen or more courses of nine holes and that is the growing tendency to improve in a more scientific manner the courses around Philadelphia. Time was when changes were made in a sort of a hit or miss manner. Today every trap or pit that is constructed means something definite and with it all has come the scientific construction of bunkers and hazards.”

“Time was when the green committee built courses on a broad principle of the greatest good to the greatest number and as the greatest number in every golfing organization is the dub or indifferent player, the really good player suffered. As the chairman of the green committee
of one of the largest courses (Ab Smith?) recently expressed himself: "A few years ago we used to post the changes proposed. This met with so much opposition that we were forced to take a couple of days in the week when we were sure that the bulk of the players would not be on the course and then we started to construct a course that would help the good player and do no great injury to the poor player.  Nowadays, fortunately, we are able to make changes without feeling that we would be subjected to the severest sort of criticism."

“At any event, the golfing renaissance in Philadelphia has actually begun and before many years we shall have courses which are a credit to us and not a mark of good natured chaffing of others who know what constitutes a good course.”

A few years later, in April 1916, just before Cobb’s Creek opened for play,  Tillinghast looked back somewhat reflectively, as well as a bit more critically at the work done by Ab Smith at Huntingdon Valley.   It should be remembered that a lot was learned by all of these men about golf course architecture between 1909 (when Smith began) and the time he wrote this;

PROBABLY no course in the Philadelphia district has received more attention than Huntingdon Valley.  The course represents Philadelphia's first intelligent effort to build links which would offer a genuine test.  As compared with modern construction, the old Huntingdon Valley fell far short, but for a number of years it was admittedly the best in these parts. From time to time many changes have been made, and although much that is crude still remains, the course of today shows that the hard-working green committee has made a brave effort to keep abreast of the times.

Unfortunately the soil at "The Valley" is not good, but in spite of this, intelligent treatment has been rewarded by a greatly improved turf in the past two years. Several of the holes are distinctly bad, notably the first and the fifth, but a finer one-shotter than the twelfth would be hard to find. The chief objection to the short fifth hole is its freakishness, and the sunken green is quite blind from the teeing-ground.

Curiously enough, Mr. A. H. Smith, who always has sturdily defended this hole, was repaid for his allegiance a few weeks ago when he holed out in one in the snow.




Geoffrey_Walsh

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Came across something interesting today.

The annexation of 15-20 acres by the US Army didn't take place during World War II.

Instead, it took place during the Cold War, around 1952 or thereafter.

Mike,

We needed to nail down this date.  This confirms that Charlie Sifford honed his game and played the Negro Opens on the ORIGINAL ROUTING, not the abridged one.  Great work finding this.

The only tough part is that Bausch now has to read the Inquirer through 1952... at least he'll read about the Whiz Kids run to the pennant.

Mike_Cirba

Actually, Geoffrey...

After spending the week in Florida, I think Bausch needs to go thru the microfiche through at least 1956.   I can't imagine there weren't some excellent articles about Cobb's in the local press (especially the Daily News) prior to the PGA tournaments those years.  ;)

However, he still needs to nail down 1926-27 and the 17th hole!! 

I'm betting Ab Smith.

Mike_Cirba

Everytime I think I'm done with the research/writing, something pops up that sends me back to the drawing board.     :-\

The latest tidbit I've come across was very shocking to me although it might not be to others here.   I simply had no idea that he was that good!

What am I talking about?

Well, let's do it in the form of a quiz.

The winner gets 10 useless Cirba architectural research points that can be redeemed for absolutely nothing anywhere at all.

The question is;


WHO was the leader after the first round of the 1947 National Negro Open played at Cobb's Creek?

Joe Bausch and Geoffrey Walsh cannot play as I've already given them the answer.

If I don't get a correct answer by this evening, I'll provide a clue.

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