Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams

[wsmorrison]

Tom,

How could you forget these things?  You have had the Cobb's Creek architectural plans for 30 years, about the time you joined Merion.  I guess your account is far in arrears.  So much for long-term memory.  We did play golf today and I birdied 18 to win 1-up and a grand total of $4 from you.  So much for short-term memory.

Now, back to reality.  I did birdie 18 (West Course) and Greg Gaul has the plans for lo these many years.  He would like to see Mike's write-up and share his materials.  I'll IM Mike his work number.

[Mike_Cirba]

Wayne,

Are you really sure you want to subject your friend Greg to me and our group of architectural obsessive/compulsive maniacs?   

[wsmorrison]

Mike,

I did have some reservations, but I promised Greg you would tone it down a bit for him and under no circumstances would you subject him to Kyle    If you and Joe are in full obsessive/compulsive mode, you might throw him into culture shock.  Spare him if you can 

[mike_malone]

 Kyle,

   I'm not sure the rerouter of Cobbs did it to preserve the chance to return to the original. It was probably the cheapest way to do the job. But, the fact that a personal imprint was not made has allowed an easier transition back to the old routing. I guess I value economy.

[Mike_Cirba]

Kyle,

   I'm not sure the rerouter of Cobbs did it to preserve the chance to return to the original. It was probably the cheapest way to do the job. But, the fact that a personal imprint was not made has allowed an easier transition back to the old routing. I guess I value economy.

Michael,

I understand what you're saying.   I'm also betting that in the middle of World War II, with food rationing, rubber drives, and Rosie the Rivetter, that the re-router had no other options. 

Thank God for that!

[Joe Bausch]

Mike C said:

Joe,

That's a great drawing...however, the 12th tee is that little white patch just south of the tree grouping.


Drawing corrected!

[Mike_Cirba]

Joe,

I'm looking at it again and think that possibly one other change is in order.   I'd have #9 bending slightly the other way, and I think the two options on 15 would be straight up the old 14 fairway, or up the hill onto today's 15th fairway.   

As drawn, I'm afraid you're over too far onto 13 with your option. 

btw, I have a call in...I'll let you know how it goes as soon as I hear anything.

[Joe Bausch]

Joe,

I'm looking at it again and think that possibly one other change is in order.   I'd have #9 bending slightly the other way, and I think the two options on 15 would be straight up the old 14 fairway, or up the hill onto today's 15th fairway.   

As drawn, I'm afraid you're over too far onto 13 with your option. 

btw, I have a call in...I'll let you know how it goes as soon as I hear anything.

Now corrected.  Reload the page to see it.

[Mike_Cirba]

Thanks Joe!

One of the really interesting things to me about the original routing is that only two sequential holes played parallel, back and forth (today's 12 & 13) while today's routing features 5 back and forth holes in a row.   Most of the rest of the original layout really "boxed the compass", so to speak, with some really neat variety like following a 570 yard, uphill par five with a 130 yard downhill par three.   

[mike_malone]

    I went back to some of the earlier images of this discussion to help me identify the possible playing area for #13. The 1935 Dallin seems to show the play to the right of that bunch of trees. This would make sense to me for what is practical going forward since little tree removal would be needed and the wetlands could also be avoided.

  BTW it also shows a nice view of #10 and #11.


   My limited capabilities keep me from drawing the photo forward.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,

The trees in question are no longer there.   As far as wetlands, the military really took care of that for the most part when they built their facility in the 40's, and they built out all the way over to the creek.   The portion near the tee is not really wetlands, as Joe and I have tromped all through there. 

Just yesterday we located the far side tee on the 13th, that was across the creek and took play out to the left (of the trees at the time).   My concern with having a tee on the right is that you then have to swing very close to today's 7th green, especially using modern technology.

Somewhat ironically, I think that the work done to build an anti-aircraft battery, and then later a driving range, works to give plenty of options (much more than existed in those old pictures) for how that area might be utilized.   If a decision were ever made to re-integrate the driving range with the golf course in a restoration, there is more than enough property to route the hole in a way that would be historically accurate and a bit less tight up against today's 7th.

I'm no hydrologist, but I'm also thinking that someone creative who is could come up with something to alleviate flooding problems...perhaps an overflow/irrigation pond back off to the left out of play? 

Kyle Harris first suggested it and it seems like an interesting idea, espcially considering the fact that we know there was a lake originally in Cobb's Creek Park just south of the Karakung Course that was filled in years later, so there is historical precedence.

[mike_malone]

 I guess there are different trees there now. I would love to see that serpentine section of the creek near #13 opened up to view at least.

[Bill Hagel]

First of all, we have no idea if George Fazio did the work, so I think we all need to make that clear.   It happened between 1942 and 1944 and I know he wasn't a practicing architect at the time and we have never come across any actual attribution.

Mike

I guess I was the one who made this assertion when we all met the first time back in the late Fall.  It was based on something an "old timer" said to me when we hooked up together while playing the course, oh it had to be a good 16-18 years ago (it was PK* for me).  I'm guessing, but the gentlemen had to be early to mid-70's.  That would make him in his 20's when the Army took over the 13th.  I can remember almost exactly what he told me as we were walking up the 7th fairway.  He pointed toward the driving range and said:

"The Army annexed that area over there during WWII and put an anti-aircraft gun in there".  George Fazio was hanging around Cobbs at that time, and he drew up the new holes" 

Thats it - I was too uninitiated in the ways of course design  back then (HA- like I'm some genius now  ) to ask any intellegent questions of him.  In fact, I thought he was talking about only having to reroute the 7th fairway at the time.  I THINK I knew who George Fazio was anyway - because that stuck with me all this time.

There's got to be some newspaper accounts in the early 40's of the annexing and re-routing, don't you think?

*PK - Pre-Kids   

[Rob_Waldron]

Mike C

You obviously have never met Greg Gaul. I played a team match against Greg at Merion several yers ago. After dinner, Greg and I started talking about golf and I believe we finally left the club about 3 hours after the rest of both of our teams had gone. He is passionate!

Rob

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike C

You obviously have never met Greg Gaul. I played a team match against Greg at Merion several yers ago. After dinner, Greg and I started talking about golf and I believe we finally left the club about 3 hours after the rest of both of our teams had gone. He is passionate!

Rob

Rob,

Greg and I are getting together this coming Monday to compare notes.   We spoke for awhile yesterday afternoon and we certainly have some mutual interests...and lots of research materials to wade through.

I'm really looking forward to it. 


Bill,

Thanks for sharing that story.   I'm not doubting that it was George Fazio, I was simply pointing out that we don't have contemporaneous documentation so we should be careful before assigning credit (or blame) to him.

Perhaps it's just me but I got a bit of goosebumps hearing you tell that story, as I imagined this old man wistfully looking over at the driving range and vividly remembering what had been.   I would imagine it was important to him...enough so that he pointed it out to a young buck like you.   

[mike_malone]

 I believe the recovery of #13 is the key to the whole effort. It was a great hole that allows the old routing to be restored. I noticed a number of people hitting from the second level of the driving range last weekend and thought that a multilevel facility is essential in the new location.

[Mike_Cirba]

I believe the recovery of #13 is the key to the whole effort. It was a great hole that allows the old routing to be restored. I noticed a number of people hitting from the second level of the driving range last weekend and thought that a multilevel facility is essential in the new location.

Michael,

I think you're absolutely correct that the possibility of a restoration ever occuring will require a solution for recouping that area as part of the golf course, as it was originally, while determining a workable $$$ replacement strategy for the driving range.

There is certainly no way to accommodate the original routing and restore the holes we've been discussing without those critical 15-20 acres.

That's probably going to take a little time.

[Joe Bausch]

I am now up through August of 1925 in my by hand microfilm search trying to pin down when Cobb's dumped the original par 3 #14 and added the current 17th.  Well, I have it boxed in a bit better now as up to the summer of 1925 the old #14 was still in play.  This is supported by the box score to a long article of an exhibition match played at Cobb's between some of the best women golfers around.  The match was played on June 10, 1925, and this article proves the 14th was still there:




And here is a picture to go with the story.  Sorry, but this electronic scanner doesn't do a great job.  It doesn't indicate which hole it is, and at first glance I'm not certain which one it is, but it might be the par 3 12th, but maybe it could be our first photo dug up of the long lost par 3 14th!

[Kyle Harris]

Joe,

The 12th seems to be a great guess from the ditch behind the green and in front, and the terrain behind the patrons in the gallery.

[Mike_Cirba]

Joe,

Wonderful story...thanks for sharing...again.

I'm 98% sure that's the old 12th island green, based largely on the background. 

[Mike_Cirba]

By the way, for anyone who might not know who Dorothy Campbell Hurd was, she was basically the Annika of her generation, although with more longevity.

She also grew up on the North Berwick West Links, another reason to love her.

From Wikipedia;

Dorothy Campbell
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Dorothy Iona Campbell (March 24, 1883 – March 20, 1945) was the first internationally dominant female golfer. She was also known in her lifetime as Dorothy Hurd, Mrs. J.V. Hurd, and Dorothy Howe, and she is sometimes referred to by the portmanteau name Dorothy Campbell Hurd Howe.

Born as Dorothy Campbell into a golfing family in North Berwick, Scotland, she began swinging golf clubs when she was just 18 months old. Within a few years she was competing with her sisters. She was the first woman to win the American, British and Canadian Women's Amateur Golf Championship.

Over the course of her career, she won 11 national amateur crowns between Great Britain, the United States, Canada, and Scotland, the last of which came in 1924 at the age of 41. She moved to Canada in 1910 and in 1913 she moved to the United States permanently, where she married Jack V. Hurd that year. She won many of her titles as Mrs. J.V. Hurd, but she and Hurd were divorced in 1923. She married Edward Howe in 1937 and divorced again in 1943.

She was inducted to the Canadian Golf Hall of Fame and the World Golf Hall of Fame in 1978.

Notable wins
1905 Scottish Ladies Championship
1906 Scottish Ladies Championship
1908 Scottish Ladies Championship
1909 United States Women's Amateur Golf Championship, British Ladies Amateur Golf Championship
1910 United States Women's Amateur Golf Championship, Canadian Ladies Open
1911 British Ladies Amateur Golf Championship, Canadian Ladies Open
1912 Canadian Women's Amateur Golf Championship
1918 North and South Women's Amateur Golf Championship
1920 North and South Women's Amateur Golf Championship
1921 North and South Women's Amateur Golf Championship
1924 United States Women's Amateur Golf Championship
1938 U.S. Women's Senior Championship

Another good source of information on Dorothy and all things North Berwick can be found at;

http://www.northberwick.org.uk/campbell.html

[Mike_Cirba]

by the way, if that is the 12th, it sure has significantly more internal movement than today's green (the 6th), which is one of the few flattish greens on the course.

It seems perhaps that when the island feature was removed, the green may have been sadly altered, as well.   

[Bill Hagel]

Dorothy Iona Campbell was the first internationally dominant female golfer....

Over the course of her career, she won 11 national amateur crowns between Great Britain, the United States, Canada, and Scotland... the last of which came in 1924 at the age of 41. She moved to Canada in 1910 and in 1913 she moved to the United States permanently, where she married Jack V. Hurd that year. She won many of her titles as Mrs. J.V. Hurd, but she and Hurd were divorced in 1923. She married Edward Howe in 1937 and divorced again in 1943.

She was inducted to the Canadian Golf Hall of Fame and the World Golf Hall of Fame in 1978.

Notable wins
1905 Scottish Ladies Championship
1906 Scottish Ladies Championship
1908 Scottish Ladies Championship
1909 United States Women's Amateur Golf Championship, British Ladies Amateur Golf Championship
1910 United States Women's Amateur Golf Championship, Canadian Ladies Open
1911 British Ladies Amateur Golf Championship, Canadian Ladies Open
1912 Canadian Women's Amateur Golf Championship
1918 North and South Women's Amateur Golf Championship
1920 North and South Women's Amateur Golf Championship
1921 North and South Women's Amateur Golf Championship
1924 United States Women's Amateur Golf Championship
1938 U.S. Women's Senior Championship

Wow - did anyone notice her score on Cobbs - 89.

Another testament to just how tough this course played back then.

[Joe Bausch]

Here is a just a taste of some stuff we gathered this morning in the meeting talked about earlier in the thread (lots of stuff coming, lots!; Mike will do the update.)

Here is a photo of Wilson, Smith and others when scouting out a site for the course, this from the April 25, 1913 Philadelphia Inquirer:

[Mike_Cirba]

Oh man...where to start...

Joe, that pic is awesome.   

One thing we have from this morning is a July 1915 article with a large "bust" artists rendition of Ab Smith.   As we suspected, he was somewhat camera shy, and supposedly only one picture of him in "golfing togs" exists, which we're going to hunt down.   

Besides the basic bio stuff, the article says, "Ab was one of several who laid out the new municipal course in Cobb's Creek park."

Also,

we have another routing map...this one signed by Alan Corson, who had evidently taken over from Vogdes (another date we'll have to track down), and this one has today's 17th hole drawn in...and erased!!

It also has a different location for the 5th tee and green than what was built, or what was on the Vogdes map.  Basically, the tee was further right on the hill, and the green was about where the back of today's 7th tee is. 

Also, the 4th hole is drawn as it exists today.   

MUCH MORE news coming about the 4th hole later this week, but I'll leave that up to Geoff Walsh, who found the startling answer to our questions.

Also, the Corson map has the correct yardages...the 1915 Vogdes map has a number of holes overstated.   It also shows the old 14th par three with the tee just beyond today's 8th green, and a green just over the creek.

So...some mysteries cleared up, other new ones have surfaced. 

In case it sounds like it, this is FUN!