[Phil_the_Author]

I really wanted to be post # 900! 

Joe, I think that if Tilly had written to Evans he would have stated the letter as being penned by him. Although there is similarity in several arguments, including a small amount of the sarcasm, overall it doesn't strike me as Tilly's writing style, though I am quite happy to be wrong...

[Joe Bausch]

We're BAAACKKK!

For those that wanted primary source references for those involved w/ Cobb's Creek, well, we got it.  Today Mike Cirba and I spent some time (apparently his job has more flexibility than mine as I had to leave for a meeting before the juicy stuff was found!) looking through archival material from the offices of the Golf Association of Philadelphia.  I'll just use this post to say:  Hey, Mike, why haven't you posted those findings yet and what we also dug up later in the afternoon from the Jan 1915 microfilm of the Philadelphia Public Ledger?!

Answer: he's probably hungry like me and didn't eat today as we waded through this treasure trove of info.

[TEPaul]

Joe:

Sorry I missed you today at GAP. I think it's good to get GAP in on this and going through their minutes is positive. Marty Emeno, if you read GOLFCLUBATLAS.com----this is just the beginning for Cobbs Creek AND GAP!  The info is pretty minimal but it is important with corroboration. After-all it looks like Robert Lesley (the long time president of GAP back then) basically made Cobbs Creek happen the way it did. In many ways the stuff you guys are doing is something like what those guys were doing back then!

Phil:

In my opinion, in the broad scheme of things back then Tillie's constant writing on the subject over the years can never be underestimated.

Also, one of the items I'd like to see get run down is Walter Travis's modus of assigning pen names to American Golfer writers back then.

[Mike_Cirba]

We're BAAACKKK!

Hey, Mike, why haven't you posted those findings yet and what we also dug up later in the afternoon from the Jan 1915 microfilm of the Philadelphia Public Ledger?!

Answer: he's probably hungry like me and didn't eat today as we waded through this treasure trove of info.

Joe,

Perhaps you can put the digitized copies up here...I don't have the ability to link to them online at present....particularly that picture of the 1915 GAP Meeting which is just unbelievable.   

I think it would make a great GolfClubAtlas "Sgt. Pepper's" album cover! 

So,  I'll type out the relevant goodies;


From the January 20th, 1915 GAP Annual Meeting Minutes, Pres. Lesley presiding with Crump, Wilson, Klauder, Ab Smith, J. Franklin Meehan, A.W. TIllinghast, et.al. in attendance;

"The President reported that arrangements have been practically completed for the building of a Public Golf Course at Cobb's Creek Park, consisting of 18 holes and that work would be commenced in the early spring so that some holes would be ready this year."

Just a few weeks later, a "Special Meeting" of GAP is held February 8th at 2:00pm in the 611 Pennsylvania Building, once again with President Lesley presiding;

"The President referred to the accessibility of the Public Golf Course on Cobb's Creek and appointed on the Park Golf Committee Messrs. A.H Smith, chairman, J.F Meehan, G.C. Klauder, G.A. Crump, and Dr. Simon Carr to work in conjunction with the Park Commissioners."

Work continued throughout 1915 on the course, which was first hoped to be opened in the fall, but didn't until May 30, 1916.

At the January 19, 1916 GAP Annual meeting, once again with President Robert Lesley chairing;

"Referring to the opening of the Public Golf Course, the President said it promises to be the best Park Course in the country, and that great credit is due to Messrs. A.H. Smith, G.C. Klauder, Hugh Wilson, and Winthrop Sargent (Head of Merion Green Committee) for their untiring efforts in developing it."

"

[Mike_Cirba]

By the way, for anyone wondering where Hugh Wilson was in the February listing, another article we came across today by William H. Evans reporting on the GAP Meeting (who was at the meeting...we have his picture there! ), cites Hugh Wilson, George Klauder, and Ab Smith as part of the committee formed to layout Cobb's Creek.


Joe,

by the way, I didn't get that last scan you did that you sent to my email.   Perhaps something blocks external addresses on your end?

Also, you may want to introduce everyone to Mr. George Klauder, as well, posing with a few other guys folks here might recognize.

[Joe Bausch]

Here are two very neat pictures obtained from the GAP archives yesterday.  First is the rather amazing photo from the GAP meeting in January 1915:



Second is a photo the includes Cobb's Creeker George Klauder, part of the crew that laid out Aronimink:

[Joe Bausch]

We also dug up the William Evans Philadelphia Public Ledger article announcing that Cobb's will finally be built:

[Phil_the_Author]

Joe,

Care must be given in accepting the veracity of the information in some of the articles you posted. Consider what is written as the caption to the photograph of Calvert, Ray, Vardon and Clauder. It proclaims them as the "Committee that laid out new golf course of the Aronomink Country Club."

The phrase "that laid out" implies both design and construction oversight and has been referenced earlier in this discussion when used about others. The fact is that this statement is incorrect.

The closest that Vardon and Ray came to Aronomink was when they visited the course during its construction in the fall of 1913. They had come to the area earlier to play in the Shawnee Open and Tilly invited them out to see what he was working on next.

Tilly wrote about this in the October & December issues of The American Golfer. He stated that, "When in Philadelphia Vardon and Ray visited the new course of the Aronomink Golf Club and they expressed great satisfaction over the layout. Vardon told your correspondent that the second hole, on the old ruins, was one of the most attractive and thoroughly good golf holes he had ever seen anywhere. The course has been seeded and some good play should be seen next year..." (October)

In December he wrote, "Mr. Cecil Calvert and Mr. George Klauder have given the development of the course their personal supervision and a great deal of intelligent consideration. They have been aided by a committee, whose only thought has been to build a course of distinction... The details of construction are looked after by Mr. Walter Long, Mr. Harrison Townsend and Mr. George Staxell." (December)

Notice that the only reference to Vardon and Ray was that they visited the course after it was already designed and built and that it was at the point of waiting for the grass to grow in. They had nothing to do with it's creation. Tilly would know since he both designed the course and spent a great deal of time there during its construction.

   

[Mike_Cirba]

Hi Philip,

I've found various attributions to this particular Aronimink course, but I have not yet found one where Tillinghast actually names himself (or anyone names him) as designer.   Can you help clear that mystery for me?  It's also interesting that the course didn't open until June of 1915, although some holes were in play earlier.

Also, and I know any answer would be purely speculative, but I have to wonder why Tilinghast wasn't asked to be part of the GAP Committee that designed Cobb's Creek.

I know he had design experience at Shawnee by that point, but would he yet have been thought of primarily as a "designer" at that point (1915), or still more as a good player and golf writer?   

All of the men appointed to the design committee had both design and construction experience at that point...Wilson, Smith, Crump, Klauder, and Meehan.   

In retrospect, it would seem that TIllinghast would have fit that model, but I'm not sure that he was thought of that way yet around Philly by 1915.

Your thoughts?


p.s.   Joe...thanks for putting those pictures up.

It's great to see a single pic with Wilson and Tilly in close proximity.   I wonder what they talked about?   

[Dan Herrmann]

Was Tillie a member of Aronimink, as alluded to in Joe's 1st GAP photo above?

[Phil_the_Author]

Mike,

In the American Golfer Magazine of February 1914, Tilly, writing as Hazard, wrote, "It is probable that by next June twelve holes of the Aronimink course will be ready for play... The course was laid out by Mr. A.W. Tillinghast..."

Interestingly, and I had forgotten this when I made the earlier post, Tilly followed this with, "and when Harry Varrdon and "Ted" Ray were in the country they were taken out for the purpose of going over the ground and the plans, and several of their suggestions concerning the last five holes were followed..."

So their only input were suggestions to tweak the final five holes. These would not have involved either routing or major changes as the article goes on to highlight the design and construction of holes 14, 17 & 18 as finished products. I would expect that the suggestions invovled hazrds, green slopes and the like.  

As Tom Paul mentioned in anearlier post, Tilly's writings about the need for municipal golf courses in general and the Cobb's Creek project in particular were quite important in pressuring the authorities to finally bring about the project. Because of the biting sarcasm and straight-out criticism's of these same men in these articles, it is also not surprising that he wasn't invited to be involved in the project.

In addition, and I have no idea if this was also part of the reason, he was already quite active in the golf course design and construction business. After Shawnee opened in 1911, he had seen his designs at Abington Hills and Wanango, & his redesign of Belfield opened by mid-1914. In 1913-14 he was already hard at work designing and overseeing the La Oma course at Fort Sam Houston in Texas, Brackenridge Park in San Antonio and the renovation of Wernersville. All of these would open in 1915. Also in 1915, there is a possibility that he was beginning the plans for the San Francisco Golf Club.

Others that he was working on in 1914-15 that would open for play in 1916 were Atlantic Beach & the Jungle Club in Florida, Cedar Crest in Texas, and somewhat locally, the Hempstead CC on Long Island, Shackamaxon and 9 holes of Mountain Ridge (NLE) in New Jersey, St. Albans CC in New York and the Wilton Grove CC which we know he designed but don't know where it was/is located.

Considering the difficulties involved in that amount of national travel, is it really surprising that Tilly wasn't invovled in the planning of Cobb's Creek?

It also shows that with Shawnee, Tilly had totally committed himself to a career as a golf course architect.

Dan, it is very possible that Tilly was a member of Aronimink was but I don't have first hand knowledge of this.

[Joe Bausch]

Here is an article from the January 18, 1914 Philadelphia Inquirer that pretty much says what Phil just provided from the February 1914 issue of American Golfer Magazine:



And here is another discussion of Aronimink and those that that "laid (it) out":

[Mike_Cirba]

Thanks, Phil and Joe....I appreciate the greater understanding.

Phil, that's an interesting point about Tillinghast perhaps having antagonized so many City Officials and powers that be with his writings over the years that perhaps Robert Leslie thought it the better part of wisdom to keep Tillinghast out of direct involvement with the project, even though it's ironic, because as much as anyone he was responsible for the course finally coming into being.

I also wonder from another standpoint.  Of the men who did get appointed to the Design Committee, all of them were "amateur" architects, and because of the very real threat of any of them losing their cherished amateur status if they were seen as too closely being part of some "professional" golf activities, such as architecture, the accounts are full of clever euphemisms for what these men actually did at Cobb's Creek, including such dandies as "golf experts", or as listed above "referred to the accessibility of the Public Golf Course".    

Given that Tilly was a professional architect by this point, perhaps GAP thought it best to just keep the arrangement as informal as possible.   It's also possible that Tillinghast would have asked for payment? 

[Phil_the_Author]

Mike,

Although the issue of amateur standing and declaring as professionals those who accepted payment for designing golf courses was just around the corner, still, it was in late 1916 and on into 1918 when this occurred. At the time that Cobb's Creek was being designed all were considered amateurs. I don't think that was the reason.

Paying Tilly to do it would be the more likely reason yet I don't believe that he was even given consideration for it. The idea of this project was so popular, and those involved so locally important and talented in the area of design and construction of great golf courses and very willing to volunteer their services, that even considering asking a recognized architect to design for pay probably never even entered the picture.

I think it was the combination of Tilly having burned the powers-that-be in his columns and his now nationwide traveling in his design work that made the decision to not invite his participation an easy one for them. You'll also notice that he never once even suggested that he would have liked to have been involved.   

[Mike_Cirba]

Joe,

What is the date of the second Aronimink article?  

It's interesting that the author seems to have given Klauder and Calvert equal billing with Tilly as the designer, which makes sense given some of the articles on Klauder I have, including one where he evidently solved one design problem in a dream!

I sense that given the length of time that the course was under construction, there were a number of evolutions, and Tilly's involvement probably waxed and waned as his architectural business took him out of town.

[Joe Bausch]

Joe,

What is the date of the second Aronimink article?  

April 22, 1917 also from The Philly Inky.

[Phil_the_Author]

Mike,

You need to read the series of articles in the American Golfer in 1913-14 where Tilly speaks of the design of Aronimink. Also, in the June 20, 1914 issue of Country Club Life Philadelphia, Tilly wrote an article titled "The New Aronimink Course" in which he begins by warning the readers that as he was the one who "planned Aronimink" that he should be forgiven for his descriptions of the holes "as you would one a proud parent who naturally regards his own child more fondly than that of his neighbor..."

This is in agrrement with Joe's first article wherein it states that "In consultation with A.W. Tillinghast the course was laid out, and the report of the committee gives Mr. Tillinghast full credit for the work..."

No doubt as in almost every golf course design and construction all the way down to this day, those involved in day-to-day oversight of the work made decisions that affected final design features. It was obviously this way at Aronimink, yet from the comments made whereby Tilly was given "full credit" for the course layout, most of what was put on the ground were his design ideas.

[wsmorrison]

It is interesting that Donald Ross was mentioned as coming by for some finishing touches sometime after Ray and Vardon visited.   That's pretty darn early for Ross in SE Pennsylvania although there is mention that Ross's work at Philadelphia Cricket may have been as early as 1914 rather than the 1930 previously reported.

Phil,
At what point did Tillinghast start taking money for his design services?

[Mike_Cirba]

Phil,

Understood about TIlly and Aronimink.

However, I would question the timing of when the whole issue of architects possibly losing their amateur status was debated and discussed.

It was a hugely hot topic at the USGA annual Meeting in February 1915, and had already been an active topic of conversation and debate prior.

For instance, one article I came across discussing the debate at the meeting editorialized as follows;

"It will be a hard task to convince golfers, the country over, that a man who keeps greens cannot be an amateur, while the one who made the very same greens remains simon-pure.   The argument advanced in favor of excepting the links architect is that such work calls for ability of a rare sort, in the nature of a a special gift.   Don't you believe it.  There are as many good course architects now as there are really expert green keepers.   It is the experience of the last ten years that has created both callings in the Western hemisphere, and it is almost as difficult to separate the two as to divorce a musical instrument from the music it makes through a human agency."

"

[Phil_the_Author]

Wayne,

I noticed that as well, but it appears to be written a bit ambiguous, and since the paragraph starts by mentioning the memberships at the Old Aronimink, Belmont and Bala courses, and that Ross "put the finishing touches to the courses..." (note plural) I am wondering if it is reference to them.

As the new Aronimink built 7 years later and exists today was designed by Ross, and the original membership was a combination of members from all of these courses, it might explain why Ross was given the commission to design it rather than Tilly.

Also, Tilly was paid for Shawnee.

Mike, in the book, Tillinghast: Creator of Golf Courses, one of the Appendices is titled "The Amateur Question" and examines this very topic in great detail...   

[Mike_Cirba]

Philip,

My point about the amateur issue is that the article I quoted is from February 1915, from a Philadelphia newspaper, about the exact same time that the GAP-appointed Cobbs Creek design committee was being put together.

Such an immediate, controversial issue would clearly have been at the forefront of the minds of any of the men involved, and they would all have been well aware of it in the timeframe in question.

I do need to get that book, though. 

[TEPaul]

Mike and Phil:

I think the amateur status question probably had a lot to do with Tillinghast not being involved in something like Cobb's Creek which seemed to be an intentional collection of people from GAP, an amateur golf organization (and another well known amateur golfer or so) organized by Lesley (the president of GAP).

One of the best ways to look at how Lesley and the Cobb's Creek group or even GAP at that time looked at Tillie as an amateur or professional would probably be to look at the Lesley Cup itself, as well as any amateur playing Tillie may've done following his first being paid for architecture which according to Phil may've first happened at Shawnee somewhere between 1908-1911.

Phil would probably know if Tillie played in any amateur events following Shawnee, including the Lesley Cup (which Tillie did compete in before he was paid for architecture). I have a Leslie Cup history but it's not clear when Tillie stopped playing in it.

In other words, if after first getting paid for architecture Tillie was no longer invited to compete in the Lesley Cup that would actually say quite a lot about how his amateur status was looked at around Philadelphia.

There's a couple of things most don't seem to understand about the amateur status question and that is it wasn't just a matter of being paid for architecture it was also both a matter of a desire to actually continue to compete as an amateur.

If someone showed no intention of playing amateur golf after being paid for architecture the regulatory bodies did not exactly get into removing their amateur playing status as that would be something of a non-issue anyway.

The whole thing did come to a head at the USGA later when recognized current playing amateurs like Travis and Quimet's amateur status came into question, and at that point they even took Tillie's amateur status away. That was rather quickly followed by the so-called "architect rule" where professional architects were excepted.

If one looks carefully at that entire time (from before the teens on) Tillie may've been a pretty unique case in their minds----eg one of their fellow recognized amateur competitors who did not hide the fact he was being paid for golf architecture. When Travis and Quimet came under question both of them basically denied they were being remunerated for their names as well known amateur players.

[David Stamm]

I do need to get that book, though. 

Yes you do, Mike! It's excellent!

[Phil_the_Author]

David,

Thanks for the compliment!

Tom, as far as Tilly's amateur status and his ability to compete as one is concerned, especially as how he may have been viewed by GAP & others in the Philadelphia area, consider the 1910 U.S. Open at the Philadelphia Cricket Club.

Qualifying to play in the Open & Amateur in those years was very different from how it is today. Both golf associations and certain cities were given "spots" and chose those who would specifically represent them.

In 1910 Tilly was chosen as one of the Philadelphia representatives to compete in the Open. He finished 25 shots behind the winner being recognized by the USGA as the second low AMATEUR.

After this Tilly stopped competing and even playing for the most part because of the demands that the design business was putting on his time. As the issue of Amateurism grew in the next few years Tilly even wrote about his inability to play because of the demands of his design business yet as far as he was concerned he believed that he was and should be considered an amateur.

Remember that it wasn't just golf course architects who would be considered professionals, but also thiose who wrote about golf as well, so in both instances Tilly, and others such as Travis, were in danger of losing their amateur standing.

Tilly wrote a scathing newspaper article about the issue in July of 1914 titled "If Such Be Sin." In it he challenged the USGA and the its Executive Committee and, in specific, "President Robert C. Watson of the United States Golf Association" by name. About Watson he wrote, "I have known Mr. Watson for a great many years, and some of my most pleasant memories are matches which we have had together; consequently, any comments of mine cannot be considered as unfriendly to Mr. Watson personally, but certainly must be understood as being quite at variance with the position which he is taking as president of the national association..."

He would eloquently explain that, "I have a sufficient knowledge of the rules to know that golf journalism and golf architecture for remuneration have been no violation of the code, and I am of the opinion that the United States Golf Association will make no change which would make them so.

"If by chance golf architecture and golf journalism should, by reason of future legislation, cause me to be regarded as a professional golfer, I will go on record as saying that I shall be proud of my profession.
 
"I love the game of golf and its association, and sometimes I feel that the many years in the game have fitted me to write intelligently of it, and in my humble way I think that I have, through my writings, fostered golf and kept it before the public as a clean, honest sport of a gentleman.
 
"In the planning of courses there is the joy of creation, and a keen satisfaction in seeing them develop, until finally they receive the approval of those who play over them. Such work might be the recreation of a millionaire, but there are some of us who find it impossible to devote our attention to it without adequate remuneration, and if the makers of our golf laws see fit to call this professional golf, I certainly shall not criticize them, but I may retain in the future the same opinions which I have had in the past.
 
"Don’t think for a moment my words contain any arrogance like Boss Tweed’s ‘What are you going to do about it?’ Rather let the question be, what is wrong with it all? If such be sin, then I will continue in the ways of sin..."

[TEPaul]

Phil:

Interesting. Then it looks like as early as 1914 or earlier the USGA was considering professional architecture a violation of amateur status. It would also be interesting to know if Tillie's profession (architecture) effected him being invited to play in the Lesley Cup. Lesley, of course, was the president of GAP at this time and Howard Perrin, the president of Pine Valley would soon become the president of the USGA. The fact is Tillie appears to have stopped competing in amateur events perhaps after 1910. But the question is probably what would've happened if he'd tried to continue to compete in amateur events into the teens?

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