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Mike_Cirba

Kyle,

Your mission, if you choose to accept it, is to find the precise location of the 13th tee on any aerial.

If the 4th is confusing, the 13th is a mystery to me.

Of course, I could be rightfully accused of simply wanting to take this thread to 800 posts, and I plead guilty, but I still think that's an open question I would love to see a definitive answer to.

Mike_Cirba

The plot thickens.

Enter stage left, one Captain George Thomas.

Details at 11.

John Kavanaugh

Keep it going!!!
« Last Edit: February 13, 2008, 09:04:24 PM by John Kavanaugh »

Mike_Cirba

John,

Please don't make this thread about me...I've changed it back.   I was just a bit wary of the new software and wanted to vet it out first.  Hope you understand...Mike

TEPaul

Here's the reality of good research as opposed to rumor and supposition---and the distinction, of course, is hugely important!

In the last few days I was asked by GAP to write a short bio on George Thomas for the GAP magazine. The reason for the GAP magazine bio on Thomas is this year ('08) is the centennial of Whitemarsh GC (1908), Geo Thomas's first 18 hole design and Whitemarsh is the venue for this year's (2008) Philadelphia Amateur Championship.

When I was asked to do a bio on Thomas my first reaction was that Geoff Shackelford should do it, since, in my opinion, no one knows Thomas better than he does.

But since I can't seem to get in touch with Geoff Shackelford these days I asked a mutual friend to ask him if he'd like to do it and I was told through that intermediary that he couldn't do it and so I should. And so I did.

To do it I hit all my research material on Thomas certainly including GeoffShac's books "The Golden Age of Golf Course Architecture", "The Captain" and Thomas' own book "Golf Course Architecture in America." And there was also some other research entities and material available to me that I'll explain later.

I called Mike Cirba to tell him I believed that Thomas was also involved in the design of Cobbs Creek which he and the Cobbs committee apparently did not know.

I told him that I'd gotten the Thomas involvement out of GeoffShac's book and that I believed GeoffShac was one of the best researchers I know. I told Cirba and Bausch that I thought I'd read that Thomas spent two weeks at Cobbs, even if in a learning mode, and that I thought Thomas himself wrote that.

When I checked my source material here's all it said:

"Thomas spent considerable time studying Hugh Wilson's work during the construction of Merion Cricket Club's East course in 1912, its West course in 1914 and at a municipal course in Philadelphia, now Cobbs Creek."

There's no mention of two weeks in that quote and it's obviously not a quote from Thomas but from Shackelford, so where did I get what I told Cirba and Bausch? Obviously from a vivid or "positivist" imagination.

Did Thomas spend that kind of time at Cobb's Creek with Wilson and Crump and the others, and most important where did Shackelford get that information that Thomas had  even been there since Shackelford wrote that book in 1996?

Thomas, himself, in his own book written in the 1920s gave Hugh Wilson more credit than anyone else he dealt with along the way as a mentor and tutor on golf architecture. Thomas himself said he felt Wilson might be the best architecture out there, amateur or professional.

This post is really about how we try to do our research and how we always need to keep checking ourselves for the accuracy of the things we assume and conclude and say. We want to be as certain as we can be before we put something out there but always we realize something might come up to prove us wrong or steer us in some other direction. And of course when those things happen we want to always be willing to admit our errors in research and opinion.

In 1915-16 when Cobbs Creek was designing and building was Thomas there and for a considerable time even if he considered, at that time, that he was still in a learning mode on architecture despite having designed Whitemarsh up to seven years before that?

Since the so-called "Philadelphia School" of architecture was primarily made up of those app. four "amateur/sportsmen" architects that included Crump and Wilson and Thomas and perhaps even Tillinghast, at that time, all who knew each other really well and apparently collaborated all the time, is it reasonable to assume from all the foregoing that Thomas spent a good deal of time with the rest at Cobbs Creek?

If I were a betting man, which I'm not, I would bet a lot of money that he was there at Cobbs Creek for a considerable time with the rest but I can't absolutely prove it.  ;)








« Last Edit: February 13, 2008, 11:08:25 PM by TEPaul »

Mike_Cirba

Tom,

George Thomas himself wrote, "I always considered Hugh Wilson of Merion, Pennsylvania as one of the best of our golf architects, professional or amateur.  He taught me many things at Merion and the Philadelphia Municipal (Cobb’s Creek) and when I was building my first California courses, he kindly advised me by letter when I wrote him concerning them.” 

I'm not sure if Geoff has any other sources that would indicate the length of time he spent at Cobb's Creek, but it does certainly seem that George Thomas considered it valuable time well-spent!

While we will likely never know the extent of Thomas’s actual input, if any, into the final design of Cobb’s Creek, it seems likely that his opinion was sought, valued, and considered by Hugh Wilson and his other friends in the Philadelphia School who collaboratively designed the course.   After all, at this time, he had already designed 3 courses and was visiting regularly with George Crump at Pine Valley where he was a charter member.

In any case, it is simply another example of the very unique collaborative way that these guys approached golf course design.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2008, 11:37:04 AM by MPCirba »

TEPaul

I just heard a news report on KYW that Billy Casper Golf has signed a new contract with the City on four Philly public courses including Cobbs Creek. I did not catch who the spokesman was for the City who commented (I don't think it was Barry Bessler) but he said the City was looking forward to improvements on the courses under Casper golf as well as the prospect of City residents being discounted on greenfees.

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
I just heard a news report on KYW that Billy Casper Golf has signed a new contract with the City on four Philly public courses including Cobbs Creek. I did not catch who the spokesman was for the City who commented (I don't think it was Barry Bessler) but he said the City was looking forward to improvements on the courses under Casper golf as well as the prospect of City residents being discounted on greenfees.

From Philly.com on Thursday, Feb 14:

Pro managers to run Philadelphia's municipal golf courses

The Associated Press

PHILADELPHIA - A city council committee will approve bringing in professional managers for four of Philadelphia's six municipal golf courses , and city residents could get a break on greens fees.

The committee gave preliminary approval Wednesday to bringing in Virginia-based Billy Casper Golf to manage four municipal courses. Fairmount Park Executive Director Mark Focht says the firm is top-notch. He says it runs courses outside of Chicago and other major cities.

Consumer advocate Lance Haver told the committee that city residents should get a discount to use the courses. He said they are already paying taxes to support the courses.

Focht says Billy Casper Golf is considering offering lower fees to Philadelphians.

The deal now goes to the full Council for approval.

,,,
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Mike_Cirba

It's really nice to see that this deal seems to be in the final stages.

Congratulations to Billy Casper Golf and the Fairmount Park Commission for coming to terms.   I'm hopeful we'll see a much better future for Cobb's Creek, which is certainly as deserving a course from an architectural design, multi-cultural relevance, and grand sporting history as any in the country.

Bill Hagel

Has the Cobbs Renovation Begun?

I played Cobbs yesterday (McCall was closed).  Below is the line between the 14th and 15th holes.  Notice something missing???

Yes - the gargantuan bushes between the two fairways have been removed.  Are the trees next - thereby restoring the fairway for the once and future 11th hole?

hmmmmm  ::)



Looking back down the current 14th hole. Some tree removal would give us back the old 11th.



From the current 15th green (once and future 11th green)?

Mike_Cirba

Bill,

That's certainly an interesting development.   WIthout all those choking arbor vitae in there you begin to get a good sense of what must have been a grand hole in it's time, with tons of width and options galore at 570 yards, par five.

From the usage of a landform perspective, it must is very much in the league of other long, uphill, local par fives like the 9th at Rolling Green or, dare I say it, the 15th at Pine Valley.   :o

Sure, the drive isn't over a lake like the latter, or doesn't feature an ever narrowing  second shot between pines, but it does feature the same type of elevation change, the same strong left to right cant, the same green hanging on the edge of the precipice, and the same steep penalty for missing the approach to the right, which would tumble far down the hillside.

On the second shot, it would have been very important to reach the left, upper level for a reasonably accommodating approach angle.   Missing the second too far right would have left a daunting blind, steeply uphill approach to a shallow approach angle and missing too far left would have left a blindish shot with the ground running away towards the "saving" bunker on the right.



When one considers that the original fairway for the 11th hole is now the fairways for the 14th and 15th holes, it provides some clear evidence of how much grand "scale" was lost when the Army annexed the property of the present driving range, essentially reducing the area for the 6th through 16th holes by about 20% and forcing the holes in that area into a tight back and forth routing that is nowhere near as boldly interesting as what was there originally.

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
I've been meaning to post the following after a visit to the Temple Urban Archives earlier this month, but it slipped through the cracks.  In the Philadelphia Evening Bulletin during 1931 was an interesting series of articles on Philly area golf holes called "A Golfing Waterloo" by Joe Dey.  Yep, the Joe Dey of USGA fame and the first commissioner of the PGA Tour.  One of the holes he wrote about was the original #6 at Cobb's Creek, which had to be a very difficult hole with the drive scaling a hill 80 feet high!

@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
 I was there on Sat. and wondered how much of the present #14 fairwayy was used for the old #11.  Did the hole run along the present #14 for 200 yards or so and then stop and resume to the left and up the hill? There were trees on the left of the original tee; did they run along the left side for a decent yardage?


  Also, I wondered how much of the present #7 playing area was used by #13 originally.  It seems that it needed to get away from the creek right away. Did the fairway start to the right and work back to the left as it approached the present #7 green ?

   BTW, I also heard on KYW that Mayor Nutter had increased FPC's budget. They have gone from 600+employees to under 200 in the last 15 years. It was nice to hear of that support.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2008, 11:35:57 AM by michael_malone »
AKA Mayday

TEPaul

That's right, Joe Dey started his career around here, didn't he? And as a sportswriter!
« Last Edit: February 18, 2008, 10:33:20 AM by TEPaul »

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
I was there on Sat. and wondered how much of the present #14 fairwayy was used for the old #11.  Did the hole run along the present #14 for 200 yards or so and then stop and resume to the left and up the hill? There were trees on the left of the original tee; did they run along the left side for a decent yardage?


  Also, I wondered how much of the present #7 playing area was used by #13 originally.  It seems that it needed to get away from the creek right away. Did the fairway start to the right and work back to the left as it approached the present #7 green ?


Mayday, this little diagram might help you.  This is using a 1942 Penn Pilot photo that MikeC recently discovered that gives us one of the best views yet of that part of the course.

« Last Edit: February 18, 2008, 01:04:11 PM by Joe Bausch »
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
 Thanks, Joe

   That bunch of trees on #13 creates an interesting choice for an architect. Send golfers right or left ? It does look like one wide fairway for #11.


    I think George Fazio did a terrific job in his alternative routing.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2008, 12:51:55 PM by michael_malone »
AKA Mayday

Kyle Harris

Interesting to note that the article Joe posted mentions the 6th fairway being blind, and that the tee was located on the other side of the creek.

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Interesting to note that the article Joe posted mentions the 6th fairway being blind, and that the tee was located on the other side of the creek.

The original Vogdes drawing shows the hole not requiring a shot over water.  But we know that drawing hasn't always been spot on.  It is just a guess on my part, but moving the tee farther back and on the other side of the water gave the drives a chance to gain some lift to begin scaling the mountain!
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Mike_Cirba

    I think George Fazio did a terrific job in his alternative routing.

Mike,

The more I've studied this, the more I seriously question that assertion.

The problem is that on the large rectangular area that houses(d) 11 of the holes, the annexation by the US Army took almost 20% when one factors in 1)the area of the original 13th, 2) The area left to overgrow when 6 was shorted to become #16, and 3) The areas between the holes where rows of pines had to be planted to make two fairways out of a single one.   Overall, it basically reduced 75 playable acres for those 11 holes to 60 acres, or just over 5 acres per hole...not much considering the par for those 11 has to be 44.

So, granted, Fazio had little to work with. 

However, his "solution" was to create 5 back and forth parallel holes in a row on 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, leaving us a dinky little 16, and another hole that runs parallel #7 to the others in #7.   

He took single fairways and made them serve two holes.   He created the most boring par three on the course in #8, and the pretty awful 614 yard, featureless, strategy-less 14th.

It's very fair to say that all 7 original holes that were affected by the re-routing in the 40s were far superior to the holes that we have in their place today.

I think the reason it still plays pretty well, and the reason for your compliments about Fazio are due to the fact that the greensites are all pretty tremendous, even played in a cramped re-routed fashion, and the other untouched 11 holes are so darn good!  ;D 


Joe,

That's a great drawing...however, the 12th tee is that little white patch just south of the tree grouping.

 
« Last Edit: February 18, 2008, 04:30:05 PM by MPCirba »

Kyle Harris

     I think George Fazio did a terrific job in his alternative routing.

Mike,

The more I've studied this, the more I seriously question that assertion.

The problem is that on the large rectangular area that houses(d) 11 of the holes, the annexation by the US Army took almost 20% when one factors in 1)the area of the original 13th, 2) The area left to overgrow when 6 was shorted to become #16, and 3) The areas between the holes where rows of pines had to be planted to make two fairways out of a single one.   Overall, it basically reduced 75 playable acres for those 11 holes to 60 acres, or just over 5 acres per hole...not much considering the par for those 11 has to be 44.

So, granted, Fazio had little to work with. 

However, his "solution" was to create 5 back and forth parallel holes in a row on 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, leaving us a dinky little 16, and another hole that runs parallel #7 to the others in #7.   

He took single fairways and made them serve two holes.   He created the most boring par three on the course in #8, and the pretty awful 614 yard, featureless, strategy-less 14th.

It's very fair to say that all 7 original holes that were affected by the re-routing in the 40s were far superior to the holes that we have in their place today.

I think the reason it still plays pretty well, and the reason for your compliments about Fazio are due to the fact that the greensites are all pretty tremendous, even played in a cramped re-routed fashion, and the other untouched 11 holes are so darn good!  ;D 


Joe,

That's a great drawing...however, the 12th tee is that little white patch just south of the tree grouping.

 

Let's avoid this type of critique.

Here's why: George Fazio is to be commended for LEAVING EVERYTHING INTACT.

Name one architect who would have done that given the restraints Fazio had. Fazio showed remarkable restraint that is non-existent today.

Plus, what could have been done better?

wsmorrison

I just got done playing golf with a good friend of mine and fellow Merion member.  He has long been interested in Hugh Wilson and in the mid-1970s went to the Fairmount Park Commission and delved into their archives trying to prove that Wilson was involved in the design.  He came up empty in the proof but came across a load of original architectural drawings that the FPC gave him.  He is interested in the research and possible resurrection of the initial design (well, as much as possible anyway) and is pleased that Joe's newspaper research has proved Wilson's role in addition to the others.  My friend always thought it was Smith that was the man most responsible for the design, though it was more of an educated hunch.  Mike C and Joe B, I'll give you his contact information and you can continue the treasure hunt as he is keen to share his findings!

Mike_Cirba

Wayne,

That's awesome...can't wait to see what he's come across in terms of the drawings! 

Kyle,

First of all, we have no idea if George Fazio did the work, so I think we all need to make that clear.   It happened between 1942 and 1944 and I know he wasn't a practicing architect at the time and we have never come across any actual attribution.

Second, we have no idea if there was any budget to do anything during the war...probably not, frankly.   There were bigger concerns.

Third, as I've already mentioned, there was little to work with in terms of acreage.

I just don't agree that the new routing was somehow an improvement, or somehow required some great insight or talent. 

In fact, if you examine the 7 holes in question in terms of what was there before versus what is there I would ask if any of the holes are improvements, or even a net wash in your opinion?  I would argue that all of the original holes were better.   That's not a bias, that's simply a value judgement after studying the course.

Kyle Harris

Mike,

Improvement, no - and we are in agreement there. But... wow... everything is still there. I think Mike Malone's perspective is that changes were required and necessary, and that whomever did that work did the best with what was available while still maintaining the possibility of restoring the original design.

TEPaul

Wayno, what in the hell are you talking about? You've only got ONE good friend, and that's me. I don't recall playing golf with you today, and I don't recall being a member of Merion either----but in my present state it's possible both are true. How did I play?

Mike_Cirba

Mike,

Improvement, no - and we are in agreement there. But... wow... everything is still there. I think Mike Malone's perspective is that changes were required and necessary, and that whomever did that work did the best with what was available while still maintaining the possibility of restoring the original design.

Kyle,

Yes, and I do agree with that.   I just also wanted to be clear that I think that something very valuable that also had unique historical interest was clearly lost when the design had to be re-routed.

And...the interesting thing is that if the course is ever restored, it would still be possible to play the current routing, if anyone were still so inclined!   I'd say that's pretty unique.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2008, 05:23:19 PM by MPCirba »