Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams

[Kyle Harris]

Sounds fun Mike.  Why didn't you call me so you didn't have to play with yourself.  

So what happened when you tried to play the 17th from the original tee?!

You always win when you play with yourself.

[mike_malone]

Cobbs Creek ought to be at the level of the Fralinger String Band!!

[Bill Hagel]

Mike

I thought I saw you on the 7th tee when I was putting out on the 5th green (at McCall).   Weather was great until the wind starting blowing.

Didn't get online last night to see your post or I would have definately joined up with you at Cobbs.

Lets keep next Sunday in mind as that looks like the best weather day - and with the Eagles now with empty lockers - no conflicts.

[Joe Bausch]

Why don't we try for another GCA gathering at Cobb's on Sunday?  And we'll try to top our summer turnout of 2!; with all the happenings we've learned since, I think more would like to come out.  I'll ask MarkS to grab a couple of tee times at 9 AM for us if available.

If you can make it, let me know.  I hope some of those that say they want to see Cobb's and have never played it will come along, even if they don't want to play.  I'm sure Mark will allow people to tag along as some of us play.

And as a special parting gift, I'll give you a CD containing hundreds of Joe Bunker, Billy Bunker, and Verdant Greene articles from the early editions of the Philadelphia Inquirer.

[Mike_Cirba]

Joe,

I'll be there.   Should we bring hip boots to find the old 13 and 14 after our round?  

Better yet, perhaps Wayne can abduct Tom Paul and bring hiim over to finally see it!  

[Joe Bausch]

While at the FP Archives I also received some photocopies of Philadelphia Ledger articles that I'd yet to unearth on microfilm (thanks Rob and Chris at the Archive!).  On April 11, 1915 the Ledger did an article on Cobb's and their ball and stick diagram is similar to the one I put on this thread many pages ago from the Philadelphia Inquirer that was about one month later.  Note, the difference in the yardage of the par 3 14th.  Looks like they decided to move the green farther back.  You can even see that change if you zoom in on the photo I posted of the original drawing.

[Mike_Cirba]

Yes Joe...on the original 1915 approved drawing it looks as though the 14th green near the creek is erased (you can still see it in red) and then re-drawn back about 30 yards.  

[Joe Bausch]

A couple of pages ago I posted 'pics of pics' I snapped of photos from Cobb's from the FP Archives.  Rob and Chris at the Archives have been kind enough to scan these photos for me.  I present holes 3, 4, 5, and 12 now.  Some things of note:  the signs at the back of each green just to make sure you know what hole you are on!  I don't know what the fellow is doing that is visible barely on the pic of the 4th hole, then more clearly seen on the pic of the 5th (is he leaning against some type of hand-powered mower?).  Note in the pic of the 12th the field behind the train tracks.  A few years later a golf course would start there, the PECO employees course (Ross and Flynn) now known as McCall.





Also note the tree the right of the creek that is no longer there.  These days slicers end up right of the creek off the tee and play the hole in that fashion.



And the caption with this photo is a hoot, IMO!  Also note that this writer talks about this being 'between the eleven and twelve', instead of simply saying 'the 12th hole'.  

[Joe Bausch]

Yes Joe...on the original 1915 approved drawing it looks as though the 14th green near the creek is erased (you can still see it in red) and then re-drawn back about 30 yards.  

Here it is for those that are curious:

[Joe Bausch]

And one more photo for today:  this one of the clubhouse from the 1915 FP Annual Report.  I have no idea what the person on horseback is doing in the photo!

[Bill Hagel]

Why don't we try for another GCA gathering at Cobb's on Sunday?  And we'll try to top our summer turnout of 2!; with all the happenings we've learned since, I think more would like to come out.  I'll ask MarkS to grab a couple of tee times at 9 AM for us if available.



I'm in for Cobbs this Sunday at 9am - time is perfect for me.

Lets hope the Hurricane Swartz wannabes are right about 47 degrees and sunshine.  

[Bill Hagel]

What amazes me about the photos Joe has posted is the width and water level of Cobbs Creek.  90 years of development upstream has sure cut down on the average flowrate.

Also - I though the building in the (soon to be ) McCall GC in the background of the pic of the 12th green may have been the original clubhouse - but the position of it on the property didn't look right (the facility opened in 1912 but golf didn't start until 1919).    

[Bill Hagel]

One more thing from Joe's pics.  That tree guarding the 3rd green was imposing and must have called for a more exacting tee shot back then to get in a position to attack the green.  Especially if the now felled tree on the left side of the creek was there at that time too (near where the current bridge is nearest to the fairway).

[mike_malone]

 This has been a great thread, but too long for me to go back and find this answer.

  Do we have the original scorecard ?

[TEPaul]

Now we have some articles on Cobb's Creek from the old Philadelphia Public Ledger??

Joe, you've done some great work in digging into these old newspaper archives for this stuff.

But you've got a problem, Pal, by reproducing those Public Ledger articles and photos on here without asking my permission first.

But don't worry about it---just send me a couple of cases of really good wine and I'll overlook it---THIS TIME!

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom Paul,

Come over on Sunday morning and Joe and I will have your 92 years of royalties waiting.    

[mike_malone]

 Cobbs Creek ought to be as good as a TastyKake!!!!

[Mike_Cirba]

Can I admit to still not quite understanding what the original 13th hole was like?

I see the way it was drawn and I understand it conceptually, but then I look at the aerials and it looks to me as though they couldn't get it as close to the creek as they had hoped and it looks really squeezed in there, skirting uncomfortably past the 9th green (today's 7th).

Also, off the tee, it seems there are some large trees in what I would think should be the fairway from the tee, which would seem to force the drive over even further right very close to the 9th green.    

Am I missing something?








Also, Mayday;

In 1917. the yardages for the holes at Cobbs Creek were;

1 - 462 par five
2 - 300 par four
3 - 300 par four
4 - 150 par three
5 - 400 par four
6 - 380 par four
7 - 425 par four
8 - 355 par four
9 - 387 par four
3150 par 36

10 - 205 par three
11 - 517 par five
12 - 130 par three
13 - 543 par five
14 - 150 par three
15 - 315 par four
16 - 280 par four
17 - 443 par four
18 - 380 par four
2963 par 35

Total 6122 par 71

[Joe Bausch]

Mike, you don't miss much if anything.  

However, those photos you've reposted are what, at least 12 years after the course opened?  I can 'see' in the photos the 13th definitely running in that area but already brush/trees has grown up to make it appear that it should have run farther from the creek than it did.  But I don't think it ever really ran all those close to the creek, except for the tee shot.

[Mike_Cirba]

Joe,

Doesn't it seem strange that those trees in the fairway were permitted to stay there?   They would seem to cause players to direct balls over towards the 9th hole from the tee, and I'm imagining there could have been some congestion/dangerous situations with second shots played from that angle.

Probably due to the Fairmount Park Commission's dictate against tree removal at the time, along with what is likely a marshy area (today's wetlands) down by the creek, it seems to be one of those holes that might never have come off as originally conceived.

Given that it's really the lynchpin to having the old routing work in any considered restoration, I'm thinking that some creative solution needs to be worked out for water management in that area.  One advantage that Hugh Wilson et.al. didn't have that the US Army did was simply that they managed to create fairway over to the creek if you look at the modern aerial of the driving range.   Thus, I think it's just the first 200 or so yards that need to be cleverly thought through.

[Willie_Dow]

OVERALL vs the Iowa caucaus, I would say we are gaining!
Willie

[Joe Bausch]

Mike, I don't have the specific Philly Inky article readily in front of me, but (I vaguely?!) remember that they reported the 13th involves a tee shot over Cobb's Creek.  I believe that supports the hole running originally just like the ball and stick diagrams depict.  If the hole ran like those photos from the last 20's on suggest, they would not have said the hole teed off across the creek.  And the broken down bridge suggests, but doesn't prove, the tee for the 13th was at one time across the creek.

P.S.  Willie, I agree!

[Mike_Cirba]

OVERALL vs the Iowa caucaus, I would say we are gaining!
Willie

Bill,

Let's hope we get BOTH of our related projects completed before the 2012 elections!  

Joe,

The teeshot definitely crossed over the creek.   Both the original 6th tee and 13th tee were on the far side of the creek I'm certain.

You can see the 6th tee in a number of aerials, and I also believe you can still see the 13th just to the right of the 12th green in the top aerial from 1930 (it would be the white spot just to the other side of the creek), although it also appears that another tee was also in use already where the old-timers remember.

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Joe,

It may have been even more dangerous with the old tee but I still think it would be in play for the average golfer because the hole doglegs right around that tee and green.  I actually was looking at those newer aerials when I thought about posing that question.

Geoffrey,

I thought the same thing but what I think we're forgetting is the topography in that area at the time.   Yesterday's 9th green is at one of the highest points of the property, and it sloped downwards towards the creek from there.  

So, although it looks to be much in play from a top-down aerial, I'm betting that perched up on that hill it wasn't much of a consideration, especially when the tee was back and too the left as originally built.

The one that concerns me is the old 12th tee and drives coming from the old 6th tee.

I will guarantee you that the pole we saw in the woods held a net at one time.  

Mike,

I thought our work on the ground led us to believe that the topography would take away the threat to the 9th green/10th tee.  However, if you draw a straight line from the tee to the green it does seem to go perilously close to the 9th green.

I agree that the trees just don't make sense to me.  The only thing I could think of is that the slope is so steep to the left (as you look at them from the tee) of those trees down towards the creek that they are there to guide the player towards the right.  Wetlands consideration, as you mention, might also be a factor.  That being said, I have to believe Wilson conceived the fairway to run much further along the creek than it does (ala #5 at Merion).

Maybe we can explore down there on our next expedition.  

[Kyle Harris]

Pace of play issues were probably compounding by the fact that golfers on the 13th had to wait for the double fairway to clear of players on the 9th as well.

The LZs are somewhat staggered and the golf balls of the time weren't exactly shooting off the club face.