[Joe Bausch]

FWIW:  currently as configured Cobb's Creek is 69.9/123 from the back tees.  I would love to go back in time and have the course re-rated as originally routed.  I have little doubt it would be 73+/140+.  Easily.

[Mike_Cirba]

Oh, and finally...in a "six degrees of separation" moment for anyone who knows I've also been researching the design history of Pocono Manor, the original beautiful clubhouse(s) (one for men and one for ladies) at Cobbs Creek were designed by....Walter Smedley, who was an avid early Philadelphia golfer and accomplished architect, a member of the Ozone Club, the President of Pocono Manor from 1907 through the building of the golf course in 1911 and beyond, and who also designed the illustrious resort hotel at Pocono Manor.  

[Kyle Harris]

Mike,

If the range is out... one could still play much of the original holes and have the original 6th.

Have today's 14th play as the 9th and have the old 12th be the 11th. Build the original 13th tee and play to the 7th green, and then play today's 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 17th and 18th as the finish.

[Mike_Cirba]

Kyle,

If you could build the original 13th tee, your problems would be solved and I think the rest of the hole would be relatively easy.   That area down near the tee and for the next 150 or so yards is largely where the environmental considerations/flood control issues, and reclamation would need to take place.

[JSlonis]

Thanks to all of you for your hard work and research on this thread.  This is some great stuff to digest.  I don't know if it'll ever happen, but a return of Cobb's Creek to it's original glory would be a crowning achievement for this area...heck it would be a great acheivement for the history of American golf course architecture.

[Mike_Cirba]

Thanks to all of you for your hard work and research on this thread.  This is some great stuff to digest.  I don't know if it'll ever happen, but a return of Cobb's Creek to it's original glory would be a crowning achievement for this area...heck it would be a great acheivement for the history of American golf course architecture.

Jamie,

I'm a firm believer in the dictum that history is determined by small, committed minorities.

In that spirit, we will press on realistically, idealistically and enthusiastically.

There is nothing so powerful as an idea whose time has come, and I firmly believe that there are many seemingly unrelated forces that are presently and unknowingly conspiring to create a "perfect storm" that just happens to coincide with the eyes of the sporting world being turned towards Philadelphia in 5 short years.

If the prominent golfers of Philadelphia could get this wonderful course located and approved in 1913 (opened 1916), I don't see any reason we can't get it restored to its full glory 100 years later.

[JSlonis]

Mike,

If there is anything I can do to help along the way, please count me in.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,

If there is anything I can do to help along the way, please count me in.

Jamie,

Thank you very much...if we get to where we think (hope) we can by the coming spring, we'll definitely be needing your support and assistance.  

I'll keep you updated.

Happy New Year!
Mike

[TEPaul]

To me the real interesting story of Cobb's Creek golf course is not exactly who routed and designed it but how intransigent the city government of Philadelphia was with the concept of doing it at all and how much that pissed off and disappointed what some today might consider to be the golfing elitists of Philadelphia who proposed it and designed and built it in the first place and who most think wouldn't have cared about something like that at all.

And then the course finally got built and it was supposedly very good and hard and then what did the f...ing city government do but set the fees so high that the ones who were called the so-called "elitists" who proposed it and got it done wanted to see play it couldn't really even afford to play it!

So who ended up playing it at first? The so-called elitists did who belonged to the private clubs while the working man couldn't afford to pay the fees in the opinon of Tillinghast.

That's why I love Tillinghast! In print the man took no prisoners! He was all over the City government and the Park Commission like a field of ticks in August.

[Mike_Cirba]

To me the real interesting story of Cobb's Creek golf course is not exactly who routed and designed it but how intransigent the city government of Philadelphia was with the concept of doing it at all and how much that pissed off and disappointed what some today might consider to be the golfing elitists of Philadelphia who proposed it and designed and built it in the first place and who most think wouldn't have cared about something like that at all.

And then the course finally got built and it was supposedly very good and hard and then what did the f...ing city government do but set the fees so high that the ones who were called the so-called "elitists" who proposed it and got it done wanted to see play it couldn't really even afford to play it!

So who ended up playing it at first? The so-called elitists did who belonged to the private clubs while the working man couldn't afford to pay the fees in the opinon of Tillinghast.

That's why I love Tillinghast! In print the man took no prisoners! He was all over the City government and the Park Commission like a field of ticks in August.

Tom,

I have more details in that regard, but suffice to say right now that Tillinghast was a prime force in essentially embarrasing the city fathers into getting the course approved and built and then helping to oversee that it was run properly.

Interestingly, one of the thing we learned today is something I think you'll find fascinating.

Evidently, the City Park Commission has historically (and especially during those times) taken a very benign, passive role in the promotion of "recreation" and "entertainment" within Fairmount Park, which accounts for much of the early reluctance to build a course.   The philosophical stance taken by the commission in those days was that the rabbled masses would get the full life-enhancing and spiritually-enriching beneifts of the parks simply by visiting them, in almost an Thoreau-like osmosis of nature invigorating and energizing man.   In a similar vein, it was believed that the creation of still-life architecture and artistic sculptures within the parks would satisfy the need of the common Philadelphian for full cultural enrichment.   In other words, it was believed that just exposing the mass citizenry to these enlightened artistic efforts, that some intrinsic kinesis was going to occur that would both pacify and enrich the populace to such an extent that no further interactive recreation or entertainment would be necessary.

[TEPaul]

Come on Mike, who do you really think those city government people of that time represented?

In my opinion the only constituency they represented was the constituency of complete idiocy.

Here you have the common guy probably wanting to play affordable golf, the elitists in golf of that time agreeing with that and willing to design and build something for them and those blockheads in city government not understanding any of it except that someone in the Park might get hit by a golf ball.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

The City Officials were also in the Joyce Kilmer camp at the time and were seriously concerned that someone might fell a tree.  

One of the happy events of today was finding that tree removal within Fairmount Park is both feasible and legal..

..Under the auspices of an approved "RESTORATION"!!!!!  

[Joe Bausch]

Here is a pic of the colored pencil drawing of the Cobb's Clubhouse by Walter Smedley.  The FP archivists have done a real nice job preserving some very old stuff.

[Peter Pallotta]

Mike - a complete aside, but I was reminded of how interesting those times were culturally/socially. In 1919, clarinettist Benny Goodman was one of 11 children of Jewish parents living in the Chicago slums, but got his early lessons for free at Jane Addams's Hull House, and then as a 10 year old who showed promise got two years of private lessons for next to nothing from Franz Schoepp, a German-born classical player from the Chicago Symphony who also taught Buster Bailey (who was black).

Peter

[Joe Bausch]

Here is a picture of a picture (!) taken from the scrapbook at the FP Archives of the original 12th at Cobb's Creek (the original photo is from the Philadelphia Ledger in 1916).  The creek runs around the back of the green and then to the left.  That dry creek running along the right edge of the green and connecting back with Cobb's Creek at the front left was apparently put in to protect the green in the event of a large rainfall producing storm.



And here is the equivalent view now.  Martin, can you show your Photoshop expertise again!

[Joe Bausch]

Here is another picture of a picture from the FP Archives scrapbook of a 1916 Philadelphia Ledger photo of the 4th at Cobb's Creek.  I have a suspicion this photo spanned farther to the right but somehow was lost through the years (one day I'll find these Ledger photos in the microfilm version).  As Mike talked in a recent post, we've again revisited this site and have come to the conclusion the 4th green has never moved and still remains at the original site as depicted here:

[Dan Herrmann]

This may be the single greatest thread in GCA.com history.

Congratulations!

(Let us know if we any of can help in any way - it'd be a wonderful learning experience)

[Joe Bausch]

Two more pics in one post from I think the same issue in 1916 of the Philadelphia Ledger.  Here is a photo most likely from about 100 yards in front of the tee at the 5th hole where the drive crosses over the creek (to my eyes the creek almost looks wider than now) to the left, then the 2nd shot plays back over the creek to the green.



The caption that was cut off finishes with "Degree of Diversity".

And finally here is a nice pic of the green at #3, a short par 4 with the creek again in play.  With all the trees surrounding the green, is it any wonder this was the last green to open?  And continues to struggle to this day?

[Joe Bausch]

This may be the single greatest thread in GCA.com history.

Congratulations!

(Let us know if we any of can help in any way - it'd be a wonderful learning experience)

Dan, thanks for those kind words.  I think this train is starting to move slowly... but it isn't moving so fast yet that others can't jump in.  

Stay tuned for the original drawing/topo map.  Pics are coming up.

[Joe Bausch]

Ok, for the pièce de résistance.  

The original drawing of Cobb's Creek done by Jesse Vodges is pretty big, I'm guessing about 6' x 4'.  We snapped a bunch of photos of it, and as Jim Lange of The Dating Game used to say:  and here they are!

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Ok, for the pièce de résistance.  

The original drawing of Cobb's Creek done by Jesse Vodges is pretty big, I'm guessing about 6' x 4'.  We snapped a bunch of photos of it, and as Jim Lange of The Dating Game used to say:  and here they are!

I can't tell you how exciting it was to see that routing spread out on the table.  It is remarkably well preserved and it further illustrates the value of public offices keeping/maintaining archives.

Joe - are we sure Vodges created the map or just approved it?  I thought the inscription just said that he approved it (signed off on it).

The photographer should have snapped a close-up of that .

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

It would take an amazing hole to remove #17 in my mind.  it would have to be almost twice as good because the course becomes less walkable.  Keep in mind, the lost par 3 was gone by the time the '28 Public Links came around only 12 years later.  That was probably for a reason.

I think our information gathering and Joe & Mike's work on the ground is solving the 13, 14 & 17 puzzle.  I would guess that Wilson designed 13 & 14 because he wanted to use both the ridge line where #13 green was located as well as the natural green site on the creek for #14.  The gap between the old #17 & #18 was either created because the best routing led to its existence, it was an experimental solution for slow play, or both.

#14 seems to be a prime site for flooding issues and Joe's articles mention the growing criticism about the walk from 17 to 18 shortly after the course opened.  They were able to solve both by building the current 17th sometime between 1920-1927.  I also think preparing the course for the playing of 1928 US Am Pub Links may have been the catalyst for the change.  The last thing they wanted was the course being rendered unplayable due to flooding or the routing panned during their first time in the spotlight on the national stage.  Keep in mind that this time was close to the pinnacle of amateur golf in the US and not coincidentally right between the US Am's at Merion... 1924 and Jones' Grand Slam in 1930.  The Public Links, now an afterthought for the sports wires, was relatively new and covered by both the NY Times and the Washington Post.

What's interesting is the decision to remove #14 may have been the key decision which led us to the current routing/situation.  Its removal not only resulted in the wonderful 17th being built but it opened up that corner of the property to be the logical location for the miltary installation that was installed 20 years later prompting the course to be re-routed.

[Mike_Cirba]

For those of you playing along at home, I'm not sure if anyone has taken the time to save any of the TOPO images to their home computer and then blow them up to a larger size.

If you have, I'd like to get some opinions on #6.

You will note that it seems to climb 80? feet or so in the first 175 yards from the tee.

What do people think of this?   Is this hole workable for the modern game?

Can anyone name another hole they are familiar with that rises so abruptly and so quickly?

It surely is daunting and it must have been terrifying in 1916.

Thanks for any thoughts.

[wsmorrison]

Mike,

It sure is a daunting tee shot, but much less so today than in 1916.  I think golfers today would relish the shot, it isn't like there will be a steady diet of it.  It offers a varied tee shot that one doesn't come across too often, especially on the east coast.

Here is are some hole drawings on a topo of a fascinating course Flynn built (9 holes completed, 9 holes cleared but the whole project went NLE) for the second course at Eagles Mere in Pennsylvania.

You'll notice that the 1st hole (410 yards) went 115 feet downhill; the 9th hole (380 yards) went 125 feet uphill, with about half that elevation in the first 190 yards; the 18th hole (390 yards) went 130 feet uphill, with half that elevation in the first 170 yards.

Also notice the complete lack of bunkering on holes 9 and 18.  None was necessary.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

For those of you playing along at home, I'm not sure if anyone has taken the time to save any of the TOPO images to their home computer and then blow them up to a larger size.

If you have, I'd like to get some opinions on #6.

You will note that it seems to climb 80? feet or so in the first 175 yards from the tee.

What do people think of this?   Is this hole workable for the modern game?

Can anyone name another hole they are familiar with that rises so abruptly and so quickly?

It surely is daunting and it must have been terrifying in 1916.

Thanks for any thoughts.

Mike;

  Personally, I think the blind, uphill shot would be a hell of a lot of fun.  Most of us here might.  In the context of a public course, I only flash back to the dressing down I receive in public circles when I tell people I play out of Lederach.  

It would require some sort of a directional-maybe a barber pole like effect at the hill crest or a tree well in the distance-in order to provide the correct line of play.  Remember, we are talking about a public course, where there will be first time players, and not caddies, and whereas people can aim at a smokestack at, say, Garden City's 4th, here, the situation requires different.  I haven't been to Pebble, but doesn't the 8th hole there feature some sort of directional for the tee shot?  

Also, the woods to the right require thought as well.  This is more of a detail question, but do you think the area would be cleared of underbrush?  I can imagine golfers dumping their tee shots to the right and spending 5 minutes or more looking for lost balls.  Led. has cleared out some of the areas to the right of 6, for example, and may be doing so on 11.  


Let me know what you think.

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