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Mike_Cirba

Re:Cobb's Creek by Hugh Wilson, Ab Smith, George Crump & George Klaudner!
« Reply #550 on: December 15, 2007, 09:52:43 PM »
Joe,

That's some really awesome sleuthing on your part!

I would concur with all of your findings, except I'm still thinking that if the tee for the old 11th was right near today's 614 yard 14th green, going back up the hill to today's 15th green would be getting to around 570, and besides, I think rangefinders are the devil's handiwork.   :o ;)

I agree that we need to get back out there again soon.   I do wish that the management situation would get resolved quickly so that we can start putting some concrete ideas on the table.  


by the way, from the thread about designing for raters, Brad Klein mentioned the "Orlando Junior Golf Foundation".

Do any of you GAPPERS know if there is a "Philadelphia Junior Golf Foundation", or its equivalent that isn't strictly related to private course junior golfers?  
« Last Edit: December 15, 2007, 10:17:43 PM by MPCirba »

Kyle Harris

Re:Cobb's Creek by Hugh Wilson, Ab Smith, George Crump & George Klaudner!
« Reply #551 on: December 15, 2007, 09:59:52 PM »
Mike,

The Philadelphia Section of the PGA is very involved with Junior Golf both through their tour and the Harry Hammond foundation. They were interested in starting a program with the Boy Scouts a few years ago that ultimately fell through for facilities reasons at the scout camp in question - but I'm sure they'd at least give you an audience.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Cobb's Creek by Hugh Wilson, Ab Smith, George Crump & George Klaudner!
« Reply #552 on: December 15, 2007, 10:57:08 PM »
Regarding the 4th:  I don't think those 'old timers' that Mark refers to were around before 1930.  We know the course changed pretty quickly after it opened.  We need to get out there again to bounce ideas off each other as to how this hole was, with a range finder as a guide.  I really do think the tee was not super far from the 3rd green and along/near the current golf cart path, and the green was in the other location.  Plus, the 4th hole was listed at 400 yards.  That is close to where the back tees are now for the hole, which I think you would not want a hack golfer hitting from if the green for the 4th was in its current location.


Joe,

I just noticed this....

Tillinghast did mention a long walk to the 4th tee, and another mentioned all the boulders so I'm thinking that either 1) the original hole is much like todays, or 2) the green was on the island and the tee was over near the railroad tracks.

However, I think Tilly's article also mentions that there is water on 3 sides around the green so that would more describe the current hole than the island green.

Geoffrey_Walsh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cobb's Creek by Hugh Wilson, Ab Smith, George Crump & George Klaudner!
« Reply #553 on: December 15, 2007, 11:41:36 PM »
Joe,

Great work!  I certainly stand corrected on the 9th green being in danger from groups coming up 13.

I am definitely up for another expedition.  Keep me posted on any future plans.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Cobb's Creek by Hugh Wilson, Ab Smith, George Crump & George Klaudner!
« Reply #554 on: December 15, 2007, 11:42:43 PM »
Joe,

Great work!  I certainly stand corrected on the 9th green being in danger from groups coming up 13.

I am definitely up for another expedition.  Keep me posted on any future plans.

Geoff,

Joe's a freaking madman, isn't he??

Man, I'm glad he's on our side!!!  ;D

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cobb's Creek by Hugh Wilson, Ab Smith, George Crump & George Klaudner!
« Reply #555 on: December 16, 2007, 12:51:41 PM »
The list of 'golf experts' that put their two cents in on Cobb's Creek perhaps could grow by one.  From this citation written by Verdant Greene:

Headline: It Happened in Golfland; Article Type: News/Opinion
Paper: Philadelphia Inquirer, published as The Philadelphia Inquirer; Date: 01-02-1916; Volume: 174; Issue: 2; Page: 18; Location: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

comes the following lines:  "Walter J. Travis has spent a good deal of time lately in making suggestions as to notable public courses, especially at Cobb's Creek and Halloween Park, Stamford.  It will be recalled that the late Mayor Gaynor, of New York, drafted him two or three times in a like capacity for Metropolitan courses.  At Stamford, the veteran put in a day mapping out the ground and has reported to the Park Commission.  He stated that while the links could not be long, it would prove decidedly attractive.  William Connellan, who largely created the Seaview course, near Atlantic City, is to design the greens."

@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Mike_Cirba

Re:Cobb's Creek by Hugh Wilson, Ab Smith, George Crump & George Klaudner!
« Reply #556 on: December 16, 2007, 01:06:17 PM »
Ok...let's see...

Hugh Wilson
Ab Smith
George Crump
George Klaudner

all documented by Tillinghast..

and now..

the "Old Man" himself, Walter Travis?

Man, if this isn't the second most awesome example of Philadelphia School architectural COLLABORATION I know of...   ;D
« Last Edit: December 16, 2007, 01:07:00 PM by MPCirba »

Kyle Harris

Re:Cobb's Creek by Hugh Wilson, Ab Smith, George Crump & George Klaudner!
« Reply #557 on: December 16, 2007, 01:12:45 PM »
Are we going to attribute Cobb's to every barnstorming amateur and professional golfer that came through Philadelphia for tournaments and Lesley Cups and were brought out to see Wilson's little "project" in Cobb's Creek park and give an opinion?

Why not just label it as a Walter Travis Signature Design?

Mike_Cirba

Re:Cobb's Creek by Hugh Wilson, Ab Smith, George Crump & George Klaudner!
« Reply #558 on: December 16, 2007, 01:24:06 PM »
Are we going to attribute Cobb's to every barnstorming amateur and professional golfer that came through Philadelphia for tournaments and Lesley Cups and were brought out to see Wilson's little "project" in Cobb's Creek park and give an opinion?

Why not just label it as a Walter Travis Signature Design?

Not anymore than we do with Crump's little project in the pinelands.  ;)

But, when I read "Golden Age of Golf Design", Geoff Shackelford sees fit to name a host of folks as "collaborators" with Crump and that's just the point here.

Wilson didn't go off into the woods of Fairmount Park by himself for six months and then come out of the wilderness to unveil his solo creation.

No, instead he led a GAP-appointed group of "experts" that included the men I mentioned, and also apparently had some help from Travis, either at the invite of the committee, or just because he was passing thru town and knew all these guys.

The point isn't to take credit away from Wilson and the Committee, but to help to shed light on the way these guys worked together on these things.  

It's much different than today, don't you think?

Kyle Harris

Re:Cobb's Creek by Hugh Wilson, Ab Smith, George Crump & George Klaudner!
« Reply #559 on: December 16, 2007, 01:28:01 PM »
I was being absurd, I admit it - but I'm willing to throw the idea out there that whomever came through Philadelphia of any note during that time was probably taken out to Cobb's Creek by Wilson/Crump/Tillinghast or whomever to see the project and perhaps give some insight. Thus it gave Verdant Green and Joe Bunker something to write about.

Point, we still don't know how much they worked together or if this is simply publicity. Heck, one day at Stamford was labeled as "significant time" and all he did was say the course couldn't be long, but attractive.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Cobb's Creek by Hugh Wilson, Ab Smith, George Crump & George Klaudner!
« Reply #560 on: December 16, 2007, 01:32:43 PM »
I was being absurd, I admit it - but I'm willing to throw the idea out there that whomever came through Philadelphia of any note during that time was probably taken out to Cobb's Creek by Wilson/Crump/Tillinghast or whomever to see the project and perhaps give some insight. Thus it gave Verdant Green and Joe Bunker something to write about.

Point, we still don't know how much they worked together or if this is simply publicity. Heck, one day at Stamford was labeled as "significant time" and all he did was say the course couldn't be long, but attractive.

Kyle,

I agree, we don't know how much Travis was involved or what he suggested, or whether those suggestions were followed.

But, I think you're underestimating how much Travis was viewed as an "expert" by 1916.  He wasn't just someone "of any note" but was possibly the most famous man in golf at that time by virtue of his play, his writings, and his designs.

« Last Edit: December 16, 2007, 03:00:54 PM by MPCirba »

Kyle Harris

Re:Cobb's Creek by Hugh Wilson, Ab Smith, George Crump & George Klaudner!
« Reply #561 on: December 16, 2007, 01:36:09 PM »
Mike,

I see it as significant that he was brought out - but I would certainly hope a man of his stature would be brought out to Cobb's if given the chance.

Willie Park, Jr. was also fairly notable during that era - unfortunately he was still in England at the time... probably reflecting on his design at Philmont South  ;)

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cobb's Creek by Hugh Wilson, Ab Smith, George Crump & George Klaudner!
« Reply #562 on: December 18, 2007, 07:32:37 PM »
I was so excited when my interlibrary loan request for the April 1916 issues for the Philadelphia Inquirer had been granted. I figured the microfiche form would allow me to clearly see the pictures from the April 9, 1916 article of the 4th and 12th holes.  Well...
.... not so fast my friend as Lee Corso would say.  The photos were better quality on microfiche, but still not clear.

The clearer photo was for #12.  The caption below the pic states that it is a heart-shaped island green.  The 'dry creek' essentially ran from north to south to the right of the green as you played the hole, then crossed in front of the green.

The photo for the 4th was too dark to be able to come to any conclusion about the green location.  
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Geoffrey_Walsh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cobb's Creek by Hugh Wilson, Ab Smith, George Crump & George Klaudner!
« Reply #563 on: December 21, 2007, 10:32:11 AM »
From the Cobb's Creek history page on GolfPhilly.com regarding the 1955 Daily News Open:

"It measured only 6,243 yards. However, against a par of 68 it proved formidable."

How did they get to the 68?

My best guess (assuming the current routing existed in 1955), is that #1 became a four and either #14 was converted to a 4 (which would be a very uninteresting hole IMHO teeing off from the bottom of the hill) or #16 was converted to a 3.

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cobb's Creek by Hugh Wilson, Ab Smith, George Crump & George Klaudner!
« Reply #564 on: December 21, 2007, 10:55:23 AM »
Courtesy of Philip Young is this photo of the original 12th at Cobb's Creek from the May 1916 issue of Golf Illustrated:

@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cobb's Creek by Hugh Wilson, Ab Smith, George Crump & George Klaudner!
« Reply #565 on: December 21, 2007, 11:08:29 AM »
And here are three other comments on Cobb's from the June 1916 issue of GI, courtesy again of Phil Young:





@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Bill Hagel

Re:Cobb's Creek by Hugh Wilson, Ab Smith, George Crump & George Klauner!
« Reply #566 on: December 23, 2007, 12:50:00 PM »
Joe

FANTASTIC.

I hope everyone has a great holiday.

Can't wait to play Cobbs again with all this new perspective.

Geoffrey_Walsh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cobb's Creek by Hugh Wilson, Ab Smith, George Crump & George Klauner!
« Reply #567 on: December 27, 2007, 12:06:55 PM »
I'll save the play by play commentary of our visit today to the Fairmount Park Commission archives for Mr. Cirba and Mr. Bausch but it was EXTREMELY productive ;D.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2007, 12:07:11 PM by Geoffrey_Walsh »

Phil_the_Author

Re:Cobb's Creek by Hugh Wilson, Ab Smith, George Crump & George Klauner!
« Reply #568 on: December 27, 2007, 06:36:05 PM »
Mike and Joe... 6 & 1/2 hours and we're still wiating! What's the matter, do you guys actually have lives or something?

Mike_Cirba

All,

Some folks in PA fly to Florida, or Arizona, or the Caribbean during Christmas break.

But, if you're a true golf course nerd, the only hopping place to be is the Fairmount Parks Archive on the 10th floor across from the courthouse in downtown Philly.

Today, Joe Bausch and I took the train from Villanova into center city to meet Geoffrey Walsh (who was working, but was able to break free for the good stuff) there for a meeting with the Archive administrators.

It was a truly exciting day, but at first glance it seemed that all they had were many of the same newspaper articles we had already researched, along with very high-level end of the year summaries that included things like number of rounds played, etc.

However, before long we also came across some large blueprints detailing an irrigation system from the 60s (it was interesting that a number of the old tees and hole corridors still existed that late), but after an hour or so, one of the park archivists came across an indexed book that indicated there just might be an original map of the golf course.

The bound, rolled scroll was located, and we hurriedly cleared the tables.   Slowly unrolling it as if it were the Dead Sea Scrolls, we all gingerly spread it across the table, and VOILA!, there it was...

The "Cobbs Creek Golf Course as Approved by Chief Engineer" (Jesse Vodges, who signed it below), dated April 8th, 1915, almost 14 months before the course opened for play.

In essence, and of extreme value for any restoration efforts, the large blueprint was a topographical map of the property, with a basic ball-and-stick routing drawing showing the exact proposed location of the tees, fairways, and greens.

It does not include any detailed golf features, which makes perfect sense because the other accounts here seem to indicate that Wilson, Smith, Vodges, et.al., built the features during construction in a hands-on method, probably much like Pete Dye does today.   This is also consistent with what we know about the earliest drawings of Pine Valley, and possibly Merion as well, where fairway lines and green and tee locations were drawn and sketched out and then the details fleshed in during construction.

We all peered at this document excitedly as if it were the Holy Grail.   The staff are graciously making full-scale copies for us, although Joe might be able to post some pics he took of it (in sections) when he gets back from a celebratory dinner tonight.  

There was more good stuff found, including finding some wonderful 1916 photographs, and then Joe and I going back over to Cobbs late afternoon to validate some of what we had learned earlier.

I should mention that the discussion of what we're proposing was met with a great degree of interest, as well.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2007, 08:14:56 PM by MPCirba »

Willie_Dow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Topo found:

Mike we need a Topo from Merion to Cobbs !!!!!!!!!

Mike_Cirba

Topo found:

Mike we need a Topo from Merion to Cobbs !!!!!!!!!


Willie,

There was a lot of discussion today about flood management.

I'm becoming more and more convinced that it has to be at the top of the list for this to work.

Let's discuss this in detail again soon.

Mike_Cirba

As mentioned, Joe Bausch and I went back over to Cobbs Creek in the afternoon to validate what we learned today.

Some observations in no particular order;

1) I think we're now both convinced that the 4th hole today is where it always was, but that some of the creek direction and even the size and height of the intervening island has changed (grown) over the years due to rebuilding after flooding.

2) Cobbs Creek was a visual wonder when it was built.   Pictorial evidence (as well as remaining remnants indicate that the entire creek from #3 through at least today's 6th green were walled on both sides with amazing stone masonry.

3) Cobb's Creek was an amazingly difficult golf course for 1916.   The first tournament held there was won with an 82, and a score of 100 was good for 10th place.

4) The climb from the 6th tee to the 6th fairway was 80 feet in the first 170 or so yards to a blind fairway.  It makes the drive on the 18th at Merion or the 18th at Riviera seem like just a pleasant pop over a hillock.  This would have been one of the most diffcult holes anywhere at the time.

Restored, it would still be a bear with today's technology.

5) It's possible the old 12th tee on that same hill would have been in range of hooked drives from the 6th.   A 12 foot tall steel pole is located just below the 12th tee and I'm betting it held up a net.   In the event of a restoration, it may make sense to slightly re-locate this tee to be a shared tee with the one serving 14 today (which was the tee for #9 back then at about 410 yards).   This would increase the distance of #12 to approximately 175-180 from the original 130, but since the green is no longer an island that's something to think about on the severely downhill shot.

...to be continued
« Last Edit: December 27, 2007, 09:32:12 PM by MPCirba »

Mike_Cirba

6) The absolute LYNCHPIN in any proposed restoration effort (besides little things like private capital investment and governmental and environmental approvals ;)) is coming up with a workable solution for the original par five 13th hole, which teed off from across the creek, over a branch of it, and then ran through the former WWII anti-aircraft artillery range/current driving range and then up to the present #8 green.

The hole would have been a lengthy one, probably about 540 with an uphill elevation change of 40 feet from tee to green on a hole that curved gently from left to right.  

There are a number of possible difficulties, even if one assumes the driving range can be annexed and replaced with a potentially wonderful golf hole.

First, there are the environmental concerns with permitting for the proposed (original) tee on the other side of the creek.   Second, it appears that the entire area from the original tee for about the first 200 yards is an overgrown dumping ground wasteland that is also probably in a floodplain.

Which gets me to Willie Dow's mention of flood control.   Without being a hydrologist or an engineer or even playing one on television, it seems this might be a good spot for a creative water management solution.   I say that because past this point is where the course seems to have flooded multiple times in its history, and we saw some devastating pics today of a flood from 1955.  I'm not sure if something creative downstream could also help some of the flood control issues at a certain club upstream, but it would certainly be worth investigating.

Unless this hole can be rebuilt in some fashion, however, the rest of the original routing, or even the slightly different routing from the 1928 USGA Publinks tournament would not be possible to restore.

Creative suggestions are much encouraged.

Mike_Cirba

7) The original, short-lived (it was gone sometime between 1916 and 1928) par three 14th hole would have been a pretty cool one, but is probably also fraught with environmental permitting nightmares, as it would require some major construction right next to the creek, and the green location there is also at the lowest point of the property.   If this hole could be restored (to make a 19 hole course because there is no way anyone in their right mind would ever get rid of the wonderful par three 17th hole that was built in its place sometime circa 1917-1928) that would be the cherry on the sundae, but I suspect it will be deemed unfeasible.

8) If the tee for the original 15th hole (today's 9th) is moved back to its original spot in the grassy area of the driving range parking lot, something will have to be done to 1) Protect street traffic on Route 1 (a row of tall arborvitae?) and 2) protect the back of today's 8th and 14th greens, which come a bit uncomfortably close.   I'd bet there were some scares there over the years.

9) Even as late as 1967, the tee for #17 was up top just off the 16th green, which is a magnificent, if terriying shot of approximately 220 yards.

10) The original 18th tee was located over behind today's 14th green at Karakung.   Also, play on 18 was changed to make the 18th for the 1950's PGA tour events from the original tee to the 15th green of the Karakung course, with an approach over the creek.    In 1967, this altered hole was still in play.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2007, 09:25:22 PM by MPCirba »

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