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Joe Bausch

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Re:Cobb's Creek "Restoreable"
« Reply #50 on: November 05, 2007, 03:35:36 PM »
Wow, the more I hear about the old layout I'm convinced I'll have to cheat even more than normal to break 80 if the restoration ever happens.   ;D
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cobb's Creek "Restoreable"
« Reply #51 on: November 05, 2007, 03:44:07 PM »
And when the USGA comes out w/ Rees Jones for a 'makeover' for the 202x US Open at Cobb's, Jones decides to make #12 play as a 275 yard par 3 to the 5th green at McCall.   ;)
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Geoffrey_Walsh

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Re:Cobb's Creek "Restoreable"
« Reply #52 on: November 05, 2007, 04:34:54 PM »
A fully restored #17 at 225 yds. might be one of the best par 3's in the Philadelphia area and it has some stiff competition.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2007, 04:36:00 PM by Geoffrey_Walsh »

David Stamm

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Re:Cobb's Creek "Restoreable"
« Reply #53 on: November 05, 2007, 08:42:36 PM »
Guys, a question. It's been years since I've seen that part of town. Is it still kind of scary around there? I've heard some wild stories about some golfers experiences while playing there. Would this be a potential sticking point?
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Mike_Cirba

Re:Cobb's Creek "Restoreable"
« Reply #54 on: November 05, 2007, 08:48:40 PM »
The combination of the old downhill 140-150 par three 12th to a tiny island green and the 17th playing at 225 yards would be an incredible par three two-punch on the back nine.

Interestingly, I think I played 17 from some top tee about 15 years or so ago during the City Public Championship.   I don't recall the details but remember when we arrived thinking...I didn't know there was a tee here!

Also, at that time we played today's 5th from the far back tee, which was a par four of 493 yards.   It was incredibly difficult and I remember looking at the scores afterwards and seeing perhaps 2-3 pars from the entire field.

Man...the more I'm thinking about this course the more I'm hoping to play it..

someday.

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cobb's Creek "Restoreable"
« Reply #55 on: November 05, 2007, 08:55:04 PM »
A fully restored #17 at 225 yds. might be one of the best par 3's in the Philadelphia area and it has some stiff competition.

Mark, has the 17th green been redone since the tee boxes were moved?  Maybe I'm not remembering it well, but it seems that if the 30's tee was brought back the green is not very receptive.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Mike_Cirba

Re:Cobb's Creek "Restoreable"
« Reply #56 on: November 05, 2007, 08:58:56 PM »
Joe,

Can't speak for Mark, but the green is pretty receptive as you're playing well downhill and the green is benched back to front (and side to side) into the hillside.  

Of course, it's also small and surrounded by bunkers.

To me, it always brought to mind the sand-locked, long 17th hole par threes at Pebble Beach and Bethpage, only dramatically downhill and visible.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Cobb's Creek "Restoreable"
« Reply #57 on: November 05, 2007, 09:02:15 PM »
Guys, a question. It's been years since I've seen that part of town. Is it still kind of scary around there? I've heard some wild stories about some golfers experiences while playing there. Would this be a potential sticking point?

David,

It's located in an interesting borderline between very expensive mainline suburbs, working class Upper Darby, and some Philadelphia apartments.  

It's got some character, but I've never heard anything related to anyone ever feeling threatened out there, and I was thinking that similar to East Lake, and with an aggressive junior program, perhaps some serious revamping could help to improve the neighborhood.

Plus, there are some serious restaurants nearby with some great local flair.

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cobb's Creek "Restoreable"
« Reply #58 on: November 05, 2007, 09:08:44 PM »
Joe,

Can't speak for Mark, but the green is pretty receptive as you're playing well downhill and the green is benched back to front (and side to side) into the hillside.  

Of course, it's also small and surrounded by bunkers.

To me, it always brought to mind the sand-locked, long 17th hole par threes at Pebble Beach and Bethpage, only dramatically downhill and visible.

Is the green 'benched back to front' from the 225 yard tees?  I was under the impression that the current tees are maybe 60° or more different from the old set.  From the current tees the green is pretty receptive... just not so sure it would be from the old tee if the angle is as different as I think it would be.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Kyle Harris

Re:Cobb's Creek "Restoreable"
« Reply #59 on: November 05, 2007, 09:19:49 PM »
Jeez, from my memory the green would be almost sloping away from the 225 tees, and that's some drop - probably like the 15th at Reading...

I can't imagine too many golfers feeling threatened... what with carrying 14 deadly implements with them.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Cobb's Creek "Restoreable"
« Reply #60 on: November 05, 2007, 09:22:13 PM »
Kyle,

It really isn't.   Actually, I now really clearly recall playing from exactly there during the tournament, and yes, it is somewhat reminiscent of 15 at Reading, sans the creek just in front of the green that exists at Reading.

It's also reminiscent of another long 17th hole just down the street by the same architect.  ;D

Joe Bausch,

Can you help?  I'm not sure how to capture images from Google Maps, but it would be interesting at this juncture to see side by side comparisons of the 17th (from the old tips) at Cobbs Creek versus 17th at that dump up the street that's supposed to hold a US Open in a few years.  ;)
« Last Edit: November 05, 2007, 09:25:32 PM by MPCirba »

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cobb's Creek "Restoreable"
« Reply #61 on: November 05, 2007, 09:39:07 PM »
Guys, a question. It's been years since I've seen that part of town. Is it still kind of scary around there? I've heard some wild stories about some golfers experiences while playing there. Would this be a potential sticking point?




David,

It's located in an interesting borderline between very expensive mainline suburbs, working class Upper Darby, and some Philadelphia apartments.  

It's got some character, but I've never heard anything related to anyone ever feeling threatened out there, and I was thinking that similar to East Lake, and with an aggressive junior program, perhaps some serious revamping could help to improve the neighborhood.

Plus, there are some serious restaurants nearby with some great local flair.


Thanks Mike, Perhaps I remembered wrong.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Mike_Cirba

Re:Cobb's Creek "Restoreable"
« Reply #62 on: November 05, 2007, 09:40:36 PM »
Guys, a question. It's been years since I've seen that part of town. Is it still kind of scary around there? I've heard some wild stories about some golfers experiences while playing there. Would this be a potential sticking point?




David,

It's located in an interesting borderline between very expensive mainline suburbs, working class Upper Darby, and some Philadelphia apartments.  

It's got some character, but I've never heard anything related to anyone ever feeling threatened out there, and I was thinking that similar to East Lake, and with an aggressive junior program, perhaps some serious revamping could help to improve the neighborhood.

Plus, there are some serious restaurants nearby with some great local flair.


Thanks Mike, Perhaps I remembered wrong.

David,

I'm not sure I'd be hanging around at night, but I've never sensed any danger during the day, if that makes sense.

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cobb's Creek "Restoreable"
« Reply #63 on: November 05, 2007, 09:48:19 PM »
Kyle,

It really isn't.   Actually, I now really clearly recall playing from exactly there during the tournament, and yes, it is somewhat reminiscent of 15 at Reading, sans the creek just in front of the green that exists at Reading.

It's also reminiscent of another long 17th hole just down the street by the same architect.  ;D

Joe Bausch,

Can you help?  I'm not sure how to capture images from Google Maps, but it would be interesting at this juncture to see side by side comparisons of the 17th (from the old tips) at Cobbs Creek versus 17th at that dump up the street that's supposed to hold a US Open in a few years.  ;)

I can definitely handle that task... in the morning when I can post the results on my web server at work.   I'm relatively paranoid about computer security these days hence I don't have my web server configured to allow remote access.

I'll be anxious to hear what Mark has to say about the green at 17.  I really would not be surprised at all to hear if it was rebuilt to make it more receptive to shots from the current tees.

And regarding safety around the course:  I can't really say much specific about that, but I do know that McCall 'across the street' hasn't seemed to have too many problems with the neighborhood... at least not that I've heard from a couple of guys I know that are members there.  But I guess Mark could really contribute on this aspect, although he might not be able to speak candidly.   ;)
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Mike_Cirba

Re:Cobb's Creek "Restoreable"
« Reply #64 on: November 05, 2007, 09:50:56 PM »
Thanks, Joe..that sounds great.

From looking at the aerials of each, there are some really interesting parallels.

Kyle Harris

Re:Cobb's Creek "Restoreable"
« Reply #65 on: November 05, 2007, 09:51:03 PM »
Joe,

Would you want to mess with a PECO guy?

Thought so...  ;)

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cobb's Creek "Restoreable"
« Reply #66 on: November 05, 2007, 09:58:23 PM »
I have to say that the thought of bringing this course back to it's former glory sounds very exciting. I trully hope all of your efforts out there are successful.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Geoffrey_Walsh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cobb's Creek "Restoreable"
« Reply #67 on: November 05, 2007, 10:00:50 PM »
I throw another observation out there that some might think is a little over the top but I stand by it...

Cobb's Creek's greens are the fastest/most difficult greens I have ever played in tournament conditions (during the Philadelphia Open Am) and I have played a number of great courses.  When those greens are firm and fast they are ridiculous.  I can remember four pins that were brutal - middle left on #2, front left on #7, front left on #12 (over the bunker), middle left on #17.  #17 you have to see to believe at that speed.

I can definitely see how people thought the course was too difficult when it opened.  If they ever bring the level of conditioning back to the point where the greens could be kept fast and firm people will realize just how difficult it can be.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2007, 10:03:17 PM by Geoffrey_Walsh »

Mike_Cirba

Re:Cobb's Creek "Restoreable"
« Reply #68 on: November 05, 2007, 10:10:26 PM »
Geoffrey,

I also played it back in the mid/late 80s in the GAP Publinks Tournament and the course was extremely difficult.  #3 was another green where you could locate some incredibly difficult hole locations, and #18 could be setup almost unputtable.

Geoffrey_Walsh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cobb's Creek "Restoreable"
« Reply #69 on: November 05, 2007, 10:17:09 PM »
Mike,

Reading the other thread that was bumped reminded me that I saw one of my playing partners 5 putt #12.

Another question - would you add any length to the holes from the original design?  I have always thought #2 in particular could benefit from some added distance.  #3 would also be a candidate if there was room to do it.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Cobb's Creek "Restoreable"
« Reply #70 on: November 05, 2007, 10:20:26 PM »
Another question - would you add any length to the holes from the original design?  I have always thought #2 in particular could benefit from some added distance.  #3 would also be a candidate if there was room to do it.

Geoffrey,

Not that I should be the one recommending what to do, but my general thought is simply if you're going to do a restoration, do a restoration.

Anything else becomes interpretation, subject to subjectivity.  ;)

Geoffrey_Walsh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cobb's Creek "Restoreable"
« Reply #71 on: November 05, 2007, 10:24:32 PM »
I'm not opposed to adding some length if it restores the shot values to a hole to account for the increase in distance over the years... as long as you keep the option of playing the original tee.  I think that would still qualify as a restoration.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Cobb's Creek "Restoreable"
« Reply #72 on: November 05, 2007, 10:28:43 PM »
February 1909

The projected public course was
indorsed and the association voted to
aid the commission in every possible
way. A committee was appointed to
investigate junior golf in the city as
the desire to foster the game among
school boys was very manifest.
The following officers were elected
for the ensuing year:—President, R.
W. Lesley; Vice-president, Dr. Simon
Carr; Secretary and Treasurer, Harrison
Townsend. Executive Committee,
S. Y. Heebner, H. W. Perrin, Ira J.
Williams, R. C. James, Fraser Harrison
and Richard Mott.

It is quite probable that Philadelphia
will in the near future offer a
Public Golf Course in Fairmount Park
to her people. The project has been
boomed in the columns of the newspapers
and the endorsement of local
players, together with the genuine interest
of the general public, has caused
the question to appear before the city
councils. The mayor is quite in sympathy
with it and it seems that only
the approval and cooperation of the
park commissioners are now necessary.
Fairmount Park really offers
splendid opportunities, for the turf is
good and the general conditions are
quite in harmony with the golfer's
ideals. In this vast play-ground of
the city's people every other branch
of sport is pursued; there are base
ball grounds and tennis courts galore,
where hundreds of happy folk find
recreation which would otherwise be
denied them. One has only to walk
about for a bit on a fine afternoon
to realize that these people are truly
a sport loving people, firm believers
in the doctrine of "all work and no
play makes Jack a dull boy"—these
are the people who are clamoring for
a chance at golf over those broad
acres of Fairmount which are at present
unused.
Those of us who know the good old
game also know that nothing is so
well calculated to bring out man's
good qualities—if they be there—or
instil them if they be wanting. Golf
developes and makes character—so
give us public schools that our boys
may be men; and give us public golf
courses that our men may be men
indeed.

January 1910

Just about a year ago the Philadelphia
papers agitated the founding
of a public golf course in Fairmount
Park. The project was considered by
the city councils and the park commission,
and the Golf Association of
Philadelphia passed resolutions to
foster it. Everywhere was the suggestion
received so kindly that the public
course seemed assured. We pictured
the great public taking to the
grand old game which could only develop
good, vigorous citizens.
Old brother Jasper used to tell us
that "De sun do move." I can only
say that it looks down on Fairmount's
broad acres as of old, but "do she"
see the tiny, fluttering flags of the
links or groups of happy, contented
men following the little white balls?
"She do" not.

March 1913

A most significant action of the
Golf Association of Philadelphia was
taken at the annual meeting. The attention
of the association was called to
the fact that the city has no public
golf course, and although individual
effort has been made from time to
time, nothing has resulted excepting
the stirring up of public sentiment. It
was pointed out that everywhere, in
all sections of the country, public
courses were being built and in some
cities they have existed for years.
Wherever the courses have been provided
for the public, they have been
immensely popular. The thousands of
men with slender purses, who could
not afford the luxury of a country
club, find that the game over public
courses is within their grasp and they
have taken to the great mind and body
building game with enthusiasm.
That a great sport-loving city like
Philadelphia has ignored this necessity
is remarkable and lamentable, especially
in view of the fact that the city
is one of the great golf centers, and
one of the oldest in America.
The association was prompt in its
action and immediately appointed the
presidents of Merion, Huntingdon
Valley, Whitemarsh Valley, The
Philadelphia Cricket Club, The Philadelphia
Country Club and Philmont, a
committee to place this claim of golf
before the commissioners of Fairmount
Park. Thus the question stands
at present. One prominent man gives
me this opinion: "I think there is not
a chance in the world. The commissioners
declare that the construction
of the course would necessitate the
cutting down of many old trees and
this they positively refuse to do. When
Mr. A. W. Tillinghast, who has been
the chief advocate of the public course
in his golf editorials, heard this comment
of the commissioners he ridiculed
the idea and pointed out the
ease with which the course could be
built on ground which now is wasted,
without disturbing a tree. He suggests
that several courses be mapped
out and submitted to the authorities,
showing not only one, but several, layouts,
which would interfere in no way
with the policy and traditions of the
park."
This activity is promising, and I predict
that a public course will be a
reality in the near future. This prophecy
is a safe one, for such a course
must come. If the Fairmount Park
commissioners cannot be convinced,
the course must be built somewhere
else. This would be a pity and it is
to be hoped that the public links will
be located where they should be, in
America's oldest and greatest public
playground.

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cobb's Creek "Restoreable"
« Reply #73 on: November 05, 2007, 10:41:24 PM »
Funny you ask about adding yardage to #3.  I had this bizarre notion that the hole was much longer years ago with the tee box right in front of the clubhouse, obviously incorrectly assuming the road there (Lansdowne Ave) was perhaps added later.  Silly me.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Mike_Cirba

Re:Cobb's Creek "Restoreable"
« Reply #74 on: November 05, 2007, 10:42:55 PM »
April 1913

Then, too, we
must anticipate the public course in
Fairmount Park. Recently a few
prominent golfers, at the solicitation
of President Lesley, journeyed
through the park and investigated proposed
sites. Their report, which has
gone before the commissioners, was
very favorable. Shall I say that golf
is booming here ? I would rather say
that it is rapidly but vigorously developing.
The building of the courses
is not being hurried with the "slapbang"
of past years, but every step is
one of intelligent consideration.
Here is a sad story. Some years

July 1913

FAIRMOUNT PUBLIC GOLF COURSE
BLOCKED.
"The Commission decided that there was
no available place in Fairmount Park for a
public golf course. The Committee on Police
and Superintendence, through its chairman,
Eli K. Price, suggested instead that
Councils be asked to appropriate $30,000 to
establish a free golf course in Cobb's Creek
Park, where there is an unbroken tract of
91 acres available for an 18-hole golf course.
"Mr. Price declared the subject had been
thoroughly investigated by the committee,
and that it had been agreed there was not
enough available land for an 18-hole course
in the Park. The committee, he declared,
had learned that it would require about
$15,000 to lay out a course along Cobb's
Creek, $15,000 to build locker houses and
$10,000 for its yearly maintenance. The
committee, therefore, requested the Commission
to ask Councils to set aside $30,000
for this purpose. The request was adopted.
"After it had been passed, Mr. Pollock
offered an amendment to the committee's
recommendation, that a five-hole golf course
be laid out in Fairmount Park. Mr. Mc-
Curdy attacked the motion, and declared
it was unfair to the poorer classes of the
city for the authorities to fence off any section
of the Park as a links. The amendment
was referred to the committee."
This report of the action of the
Fairmount Park Commissioners indicates
that the movement is blocked
for the present. Mr. McCurdy's comments
are quite amusing inasmuch
as the project was inspired by the desire
to provide golf for those who
could afford to indulge in the game
in no other way.
Your correspondent recently talked
with Major Blankenburg and he was
in great favor of it. This action of
the Commission, while regrettable, cannot
kill the public course. It only is
postponed. Philadelphia is slow to
act but when the course does come I
venture to say that it will be a good
one.

December 1913

T h o s e who
have been working
for a Philadelphia
p u b l i c
golf course have
not permitted the
first rebuff to dishearten
them nor
have they been
inactive. President
Robert Lesley,
of the Golf
Association of
Philadelphia, asserts
that the city
will h a v e the
course, and in
Fairmount Park,
too. The committee
believes that a
tract close by
Cobb's Creek is
suited nicely to
the requirements.

March 1916

IN APRIL the municipal golf course
will be thrown open to the public of
Philadelphia. Curious as it seems,
this great city was tardy in recognizing
the necessity of a public course,
and it was only after years of persuasion
that councils authorized the selection of ground and the building
of a course.
The Golf Association of Philadelphia,
from time to time, endeavored
to convince "Powers that be" that
such a course was a vital necessity,
but arguments and statistics proved
futile. The press of Philadelphia
threw itself into the campaign, and although
the columns of the papers reviewed
similar courses in other sections,
and showed how immensely
popular they were, the arguments
either fell upon deaf ears or were ignored
completely after the first paragraphs
indicated the nature of the
articles. Then the papers resulted to
ridicule, and the following is culled
from the Philadelphia Record, dated
over three years ago:
I've an old-time friend, named Thaddeus
Jones,
Who lives in a one-horse town,
Where there's nothing much to do or see;
And "'ceptin' when there's a spellin'-bee,"
They hit bed when the sun goes down.
Now Thaddeus Jones packed his bag one
day,
And to Philadelphia came,
For the first time in his life, by Gee!
And so of course it was up to me
To brag some of the city's fame.
Independence Hall, the Liberty Bell;
Thad saw all we had to show;
The Mint; League Island; here, there and
back.
He saw the Mayor and Connie Mack—
And to Fairmount Park did go.
And Thaddeus Jones looked around him
there,
And I knew he liked it well;
Then he said to me, "My friend, me thinks
I would like to try your public links;
I've my clubs at the hotel."
What was there to say? I told him the truth
But I sought his eyes with dread,
For long with pity at me he gazed;
I knew how greatly he was amazed;
"By Gosh!" was all Thaddeus said.
For you see in his little one-horse town
They don't have so much to show,
But they do have a free golf course up
there;
They have one in fact, most everywhere.
Why not here? We would like to know.
Apparently a steady fire of iron and
derision succeeded where reasoning
had failed, which brings us back to
the opening paragraph, and the Philadelphia
Public Course will be opened
in April.
The course is laid out in a section
known as Cobb's Creek Park, within
easy access of the center of the city,
for the Market Street Elevated Electric
Road will carry golfers to Sixtyninth
Street, which leaves only a short
walk to the links.
An old mansion, originally known
as the Gorman House, has been reconstructed
for locker rooms, and as a
proof of the course's popularity, already
there have been received applications
for lockers which could not be
satisfied were the capacity ten times
greater than it is.
In addition to the men's locker
room there is one for women, and
applications from the ladies have been
surprisingly many. These manifestations
of popular favor are driving
home in no unmistakable manner the
truthful predictions of those who had
observed the successes of public
courses in many other sections, and already
those who at first were "doubting
Thomases" are discussing the
necessity of building another public
course before very long.

A.W. Tillinghast (pen name "Hazard") - American Golfer Magazine
« Last Edit: November 05, 2007, 10:43:37 PM by MPCirba »