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Mike_Cirba

Re:Cobb's Creek was designed by Hugh Wilson & GEORGE CRUMP, et.al.!!!!!
« Reply #425 on: December 07, 2007, 11:28:49 PM »
By the way, the other man mentioned as "laying out" Cobbs Creek in that article, A.H.(Ab) Smith, was the brother of W.P. Smith who appears to be one of Crump's closest friends and also one of two men (with Father Simon Carr) who seemed to be closest to Crump and what he was doing and what he was thinking about the course through his years of creating Pine Valley.

W.P. Smith appears to have kept something of a dated chronicle on various holes about what Crump was wanting to accomplish.

W.P. Smith's hole by hole recollections of Crump's intentions along with the hole by hole recollections by Father Simon Carr of Crump's intentions together make up what I call "The Remembrances" which the 1921 Advisory Committee that was charged with finishing off the course essentially to Crump's intentions and while working with Hugh Alison used.

W.P Smith and his brother A.H (Ab) Smith were also part of that early group of friends and golfers that frequented Atlantic City CC before the creation of Pine Valley. Those men were also one hand for the birth of the birdie at Atlantic City CC.

W.P Smith was a really good player and probably the best of the lot.

Tom Paul,

We've been waiting for you.  ;)

It seems that this is a wonderful case of what we've collectively termed "collaboration" among extended members of the Philadelphia School of Design.  

Your details about the Smith brothers seems very consistent with Joe Bunker/Tillinghast's?  accounts of the design plan being laid out by Wilson, Crump, Smith, Klaudner, all under the oversight of Parks Engineer Jesse Vodges, who was responsible for implementing their plan and supervising construction.

It would be really interesting to learn exactly how much any or all of these gentlemen were onsite during construction, Tom, because we were there last weekend and it's probably been about a decade since I've last played there, but what struck me was the degree of naturalism and sophistication in both the original design and the greens and surrounds.  

I know many times over the years you've talked about creating a course without bunkering that just used native land forms creatively and Cobbs Creek is pretty darn close to that model.   In fact, at its best, it's really "gravity golf" at it's finest.  Almost all of the limited bunkering that is there is simply placed to prevent balls from going into really horrific spots, or continuing on into other fairways where they might interrupt play.  

I've read accounts that stated that bunkering and artificial hazards would be placed later, after some experience with how the course played, and my guess is that those plans were interrupted by some of the issues around WWI, and the fact that right from the beginning, Cobbs Creek drew way more play than anyone ever anticipated, so the idea of doing additional construction probably was never convenient.

In any case, it really doesn't need it.   Truthfully, except for the fronting bunker on today's number 10, and perhaps those on 17, you could remove every bunker on the course without changing much in the way of playability.   In fact, it might even be more difficult, as mentioned earlier.

It does seem that Wilson's modus operandi (as evidenced at Seaview) was to do the layout first, and artificial hazards later.   Given his penchant for routing terrific natural holes, it's really a tribute to both him and the others who were involved that the architecture of Cobbs Creek is as scintillating as it is, even without the addition of much in the way of artificial hazards, and still keenly visible after all of these years.

I think it's time that we try to make it what it should be.   Certainly the lineage of Wilson and Crump shouldn't be treated as the bastard orphan of public golf in Philadelphia.  
« Last Edit: December 07, 2007, 11:47:09 PM by MPCirba »

TEPaul

Re:Cobb's Creek was designed by Hugh Wilson & GEORGE CRUMP, et.al.!!!!!
« Reply #426 on: December 08, 2007, 01:08:15 AM »
"Tom Paul,

We've been waiting for you.   ;)

MikeC:

I guess I sort of suspected that with all this capitalizing of George Crump and all. But I've been pretty reticent about contributing because in my years of tournament play, with GAP and with PA Golf I think I've seen or played all but maybe a dozen courses in the Delware Valley.

Cobbs Creek just doesn't happen to be one of them.

« Last Edit: December 08, 2007, 01:25:12 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re:Cobb's Creek was designed by Hugh Wilson & GEORGE CRUMP, et.al.!!!!!
« Reply #427 on: December 08, 2007, 01:23:11 AM »
MikeC:

With the rest of your post above, there is a ton of interest there for me.

Can you imagine what and where those named as the architects "laying out" the course were coming from?

Those were men who had nothing to lose by what they were thinking and trying to put on the ground.

These were not men who would have been thinking about what golfers thought about what they did in a business sense----these were men who were not concerned about the "business" of golf course architecture.

These were guys who probably felt they were doing the city and pulbic golf a favor.

We're having our first person to person meeting of this architecture archive at Far Hills this coming Monday.

I'm going to mention this research on Cobbs Creek and it's possible we could sweep together a "design evolution" report on this course that will bring together architecture, history, public golf in the 20th century, sociology etc, etc.

THIS could be really good!

Mike_Cirba

Re:Cobb's Creek was designed by Hugh Wilson & GEORGE CRUMP, et.al.!!!!!
« Reply #428 on: December 08, 2007, 08:17:04 AM »
MikeC:

With the rest of your post above, there is a ton of interest there for me.

Can you imagine what and where those named as the architects "laying out" the course were coming from?

Those were men who had nothing to lose by what they were thinking and trying to put on the ground.

These were not men who would have been thinking about what golfers thought about what they did in a business sense----these were men who were not concerned about the "business" of golf course architecture.

These were guys who probably felt they were doing the city and pulbic golf a favor.

We're having our first person to person meeting of this architecture archive at Far Hills this coming Monday.

I'm going to mention this research on Cobbs Creek and it's possible we could sweep together a "design evolution" report on this course that will bring together architecture, history, public golf in the 20th century, sociology etc, etc.

THIS could be really good!

Tom Paul,

I had hoped you felt that way!  

The whole thing is so very exciting on multiple levels.  And I know exactly what you mean when you say that these guys were not approaching it from the "Business side", or hoping to satisfy any mass expectation of what a golf course could or should be.

Instead, as you suggest, they were being used as "experts", doing a favor to the denizens of their city to try and collectively bring them all up to speed in what the game of golf is/was, and from all accounts I've seen, seemed to take their architectural responsibility very seriously, if only out of personal work ethic, love for the game, and a strong sense of noblesse oblige.

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cobb's Creek was designed by Hugh Wilson & GEORGE CRUMP, et.al.!!!!!
« Reply #429 on: December 08, 2007, 04:23:45 PM »
While continuing my literature research on Cobb's Creek, I discovered this little tidbit while looking at the Philly Ledger on microfilm:  the first tourney held at Cobb's was on Saturday, August 12, 1916.  The winner of the 18 hole event, J.W. Clapp, fired an 82 to squeak by and win by 9 shots!
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Mike_Cirba

Re:Cobb's Creek was designed by Hugh Wilson & GEORGE CRUMP, et.al.!!!!!
« Reply #430 on: December 08, 2007, 05:33:04 PM »
Joe,

I like this one you found today in the Philadelphia Inquirer dated 4/10/1913.   The pertinent info follows;

"At the annual meeting of the Golf Association of Philadelphia, held on January 15, 1913, the following resolution was unanimously adopted;  "Upon motion duly seconded the president was requested to appoint a committee of six club presidents to confer with the Park Commissioners and other municipal authorities as to the possibility and feasibility of establishing a public course in Fairmount Park."

"In pursuance of the resolution in question the following gentlemen were thereupon appointed a committee to act in accordance with the direction of the association: John W. Pepper, Huntington Valley CC, Col. Edward Morrell, Philadelphia CC, Edward S Buckley Jr., Philadelphia Cricket, Allen Evans, Merion Cricket Club, C.H. Geist (who incidentally had Hugh Wilson design Seaview around this time , Whitemarsh Valley CC, Ellis Gimbel, Philmont CC, Robert W. Lesley, president, ex-officio, Merion Cricket Club."

"In pursuance with their appointment the committee met on the tenth day of February and passed resolutions requesting a committee of golfers to inspect the grounds in Fairmount Park adaptable for the purpose of a public golf course."

"The committee in question consisting of:  Hugh I. Wilson, Merion Cricket Club, George A. Crump, Philadelphia Country Club, A.H. Smith, Huntingdon Valley CC, and Joseph A. Slattery, Whitemarsh Valley CC, inspected Fairmount Park and made their report."

"Dr. J. William White and George S. Webster, chief of the Bureau of Surveys, expressed their opinion that the plan was a good one.   George McCurdy, president of Common Council, stated his doubts.  "It will be difficult to find a part of the park where the play would not endanger the children," he declared."


So, it would seem that not only was the committee of experts charged with laying out the design of Cobbs Creek in 1915, but that they also were charged earlier with responsibility for finding and recommending an appropriate site within the 4500 acres of Fairmount Park.  

So, site selection, laying out of the course...everything but course construction, which was handled by Vodges and his crew.

We give some architects today full credit for courses where they've done quite a bit less than that, it seems.  ;D

« Last Edit: December 08, 2007, 05:35:32 PM by MPCirba »

Kyle Harris

Re:Cobb's Creek was designed by Hugh Wilson & GEORGE CRUMP, et.al.!!!!!
« Reply #431 on: December 08, 2007, 05:41:01 PM »
At what point between the committee's appointment by the GAP and the review of Fairmount Park did the city agree to build the course? The way that copy reads is that the GAP put together a committee and then somewhere down the line the park commission agreed to build a course.

Seems the GAP passed all these resolutions, but I'm curious as to when they were enacted and if the grounds reviewed by this committee actually turned out to be Cobb's Creek or were some seminal project that ultimately became Cobb's Creek. Joe pulled up on article citing three other locations and I think I remember hearing about one of those locations becoming a golf course after the success of Cobb's Creek.

It cited a northern point in Fairmount Park, which to me, COULD indicate Walnut Lane.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2007, 08:09:17 PM by Kyle Harris »

Kyle Harris

Re:Cobb's Creek was designed by Hugh Wilson & GEORGE CRUMP, et.al.!!!!!
« Reply #432 on: December 08, 2007, 05:49:00 PM »
I just reviewed the article. It was on April 25, 1913 and makes mention of three sites around the Belmont Mansion for a 9 hole course. Each site is in the neighborhood of 50 acres.

The committee that met with the park commissioners was: Ellis Gimbel of Philmont, John W. Pepper of Huntingdon Valley, G.H Geist of Whitemarsh Valley, Hugh Wilson of Merion and Ab Smith of Huntingdon Valley.

The article makes mention that the committee felt that any portion of Fairmount Park's 3000 acres would be suitable.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Cobb's Creek was designed by Hugh Wilson & GEORGE CRUMP, et.al.!!!!!
« Reply #433 on: December 08, 2007, 05:53:45 PM »
Kyle,

Tillinghast reported in December 1913 that, "the Committee believes that a tract close by Cobbs Creek is nicely suited to the requirements."

In March of 1916, he wrote, "The Golf Association of Philadelphia, from time to time, endeavored to convince the "Powers that be" that such a course was a vital necessity, but arguments and statistics proved futile.   The press of Philadelphia threw itself into the campaign and although the columns of the papers reviewed similar courses in other sections, and showed how immensely popular they were, the arguments  either fell upon deaf ears or were ignored completely after the first paragraphs indicated the nature of the articles.   The the papers resulted in ridicule, and the following is culled from the Philadelphia Record, dated three years ago (which follows a poem about a visitor to Philly unable to find a place to golf which is too long for me to type right now)."

"Apparently a steady fire of iron and derision succeeded where reasoning had failed, which brings us back to the opening paragraph, and the Philadelphia Public Course will be opened in April."

"The Course is laid out in a section known as Cobb's Creek Park, within easy access of the center of the city..."


So, in answer to your question, the Cobbs Creek site was selected by the Committee of Wilson, Crump, Smith, et.al, and then finally opened less than 3 years later, after a LOT of public discussion and persistence by a small group of individuals.

Sound like a plan?  ;)


Kyle Harris

Re:Cobb's Creek was designed by Hugh Wilson & GEORGE CRUMP, et.al.!!!!!
« Reply #434 on: December 08, 2007, 05:57:54 PM »
Mike,

That's the type of stuff we need. I'm beginning to wonder if Crump had any connections at the Inquirer, as his father was apparently an editor there. If so, that could answer my question as to why it seems the Inquirer and a masked Tillinghast were the only people reporting on his involvement. It could also be a reason he was appointed to the committee in the first place.

No shock to me that it took 3 years of arm twisting to get the project done. Reading the long article from April 25, you can already hear the stammering on the park's end as to their commitment to the project.

Do any of the defunct papers have archives? Is a trip to the Philadelphia Library in order?

Good to see the Philadelphia model of derision and ridicule was as prevalent then as it is today...  ;)
« Last Edit: December 08, 2007, 05:59:59 PM by Kyle Harris »

Mike_Cirba

Re:Cobb's Creek was designed by Hugh Wilson & GEORGE CRUMP, et.al.!!!!!
« Reply #435 on: December 08, 2007, 06:08:19 PM »
Kyle,

I have to run to get ready for Tyler's play tonight, but a few of us intend to visit the Fairmount Park Commission archives as well as the City Archives to read...da da da...the actual Commission minutes from those years which do still exist.

The Holy Grail will be finding a blueprint, which has to exist, I'm assuming.

Joe has also been going thru the archives of the defunct papers, but it takes some time.   However, that is where the majority of the stuff that he's unearthed to date has been found and we know there's more.  

This is a blast. ;D

Kyle Harris

Re:Cobb's Creek was designed by Hugh Wilson & GEORGE CRUMP, et.al.!!!!!
« Reply #436 on: December 08, 2007, 06:12:29 PM »
Hmmm... given what we know about how Wilson and Crump built Merion and Pine Valley, are we to expect a blueprint?

What would a blueprint indicate about Crump and Wilson's involvement on the project? From what I know they both worked in the field by site and personal involvement.

Perhaps a young Joe Burbeck cut his teeth before going to the big guns at Bethpage...  ;)
« Last Edit: December 08, 2007, 06:23:34 PM by Kyle Harris »

Mike_Cirba

Re:Cobb's Creek was designed by Hugh Wilson & GEORGE CRUMP, et.al.!!!!!
« Reply #437 on: December 08, 2007, 07:01:34 PM »
By the way, there's a very good reason that Crump's involvement wasn't really obvious before this level of research took place specific to Cobb's Creek, if you think about the arrangement between the GAP Officers, their appointed golf course site selection and "lay out" committee, and the Fairmount Park Commission.

Those who laid out the course were at least once removed from the official records.  It's not like there's a record somewhere of the FPC putting WIlson and Crump on retainer directly.

And I also fully expect that we'll find a blueprint, but I also suspect it will have the name Jesse Vodges on it.   Remember that the deal was that the GAP appointed "experts" would find and recommend a site, do the lay-out and then hand it over to Fairmount Park for construction by the Park Engineer and his crews.   The interfacing between GAP and FPC was done at a higher level, with the Gimbels and Geists and the Colonel Morrows, not the golfer worker-bees like Crump and WIlson and Smith.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2007, 07:02:26 PM by MPCirba »

Kyle Harris

Re:Cobb's Creek was designed by Hugh Wilson & GEORGE CRUMP, et.al.!!!!!
« Reply #438 on: December 08, 2007, 07:04:10 PM »
I'm thinking the blueprint may be for fill requirements and tree removal. Perhaps just a stick and ball diagram?

Phil_the_Author

Re:Cobb's Creek was designed by Hugh Wilson & GEORGE CRUMP, et.al.!!!!!
« Reply #439 on: December 08, 2007, 11:11:31 PM »
Kyle & Mike,

A word of caution.

"I'm thinking the blueprint may be for fill requirements and tree removal. Perhaps just a stick and ball diagram?" & "Those who laid out the course were at least once removed from the official records.  It's not like there's a record somewhere of the FPC putting WIlson and Crump on retainer directly." & "This is a blast."

As one who has made this mistake himself, don't allow belief in a truth color the facts that you unearth, rather, let the facts unearthed lead you to the truth.

In other words, don't let your research unearth what you think you'll find, rather, find whatever it unearths...

 

Mike_Cirba

Re:Cobb's Creek was designed by Hugh Wilson & GEORGE CRUMP, et.al.!!!!!
« Reply #440 on: December 09, 2007, 12:54:20 AM »
Kyle,

I'm guessing, of course, but I'm actually thinking that we'll find much more than a ball-and-stick routing.

I say that because we do know that the GAP-appointed Committee that included Wilson, Crump, Smith, Klaudner and possibly others "laid out" the course so that it could be constructed by Park Engineer Jesse Vodges and his crews.  

My hunch is that they would need a little more to work with than a very simple line drawing.   Again, from all written evidence, the men on the Committee seemed to take their work very seriously and were part of a larger effort trying to get the city to build a course for a number of years.

I think it would have been sort of insulting and counter-productive to just hand the city parks engineer a ball-and-stick routing and say, "here you go Jesse...this is the result of our collective expertise...have at it!"  

No, instead I'm betting that they put together some type of formalized plan that they presented to the city for approval and something with enough detail for Vodges and his men (who, frankly, might not have known a golf course from a park bench) to build from.

Philip,

Yes, I know exactly what you're saying, and at almost every step along the way so far we've found more than we ever knew existed, and other facts that challenged and/or negated long held assumptions.

But, I think, as I outlined to Kyle above, that there had to be a formal plan/routing/blueprint involved and I think setting out to try and find it might be a logical next step at this juncture.

Still, wise counsel, my friend.    

Mike_Cirba

Re:Cobb's Creek was designed by Hugh Wilson & GEORGE CRUMP, et.al.!!!!!
« Reply #441 on: December 09, 2007, 01:47:07 AM »
Just a bit more from Tillinghast showing that the site in Cobbs Creek had already been selected by the Committee of Wilson, Crump, et.al. by July 1913;

Under the heading "FAIRMOUNT PUBLIC GOLF COURSE BLOCKED"

"The Commission decided that there was no available place in Fairmount Park for a public golf course.   The Committee on Police and Superintendence, through it's chairman Eli K. Price, suggested instead that Councils be asked to appropriate $30,000 to establish a free golf course in Cobb's Creek Park, where there is an unbroken tract of 91 acres available for an 18-hole golf course."

"Mr. Price declared the subject had been thoroughly investigated by the committee, and that it had been agreed there was not enough available land for an 18-hole course in the Park.   The committee, he declared, had learned that it would require about $15,000 to lay out a course along Cobb's Creek, $15,000 to build locker houses, and $10,000 for its yearly maintenance.   The committee, therefore, requested the Commission to ask Councils to set aside $30,000 for this purpose.  The request was adopted"

"After it had passed, Mr. Pollock offered an amendment to the committee's recommendation that a five-hole golf course be laid out in Fairmount Park.   Mr. McCurdy attacked the notion, and declared it was unfair to the poorer classes of the city for the authorities to fence off any section of the Park as a links.   The amendment was referred to the committee."

Tillinghast then editorialized as follows;

"This report of the action of the Fairmount Park Commissioners indicates that the movement is blocked for the present.   Mr. McCurdy's comments are quite amusing inasmuch as the project was inspired by the desire to provide golf for those could not afford to indulge in the game in no other way."

"Your correspondent recently talked with Major (sic) Blankenburg and he was in great favor of it.  This action of the Commission, while regrettable, cannot kill the public course.   It only is postponed.   Philadelphia is slow to act but when the course does come I venture to say that it will be a good one."

By May, 1915, Tillinghast was able to report; "Work has started on the new public course by Cobb's Creek."

Interestingly, on a related note, in the same issue of "American Golfer" Tillinghast also reported that "Seaview (designed the prior year by Hugh Wilson) has called in Donald Ross to build traps, and his ideas, along with those of Wilfred Reid (newly hired pro) should stiffen the Absecon course considerably."  One has to wonder if the imminent work at Cobb's Creek didn't draw Wilson's time away from Seaview, which he designed for Clarence Geist, who was ironically on the GAP oversight committee that interacted directly with the city and Fairmount Park Commission.

On another subject, Kyle was questioning earlier why the only one who ever reported on Crump's involvement at Cobb's Creek was Tillinghast.  

I think it's very clear from these writings that Tilly was the ultimate insider on many levels of Philadelphia society at this time, and I'm quite sure he knew exactly what was transpiring and who the players were during this time period.   He was also very good friends with George Crump and would have certainly known about Crump's involvement with the "expert committee" appointed by GAP, as well as where responsibility of the various involved parties would lie in terms of getting the design and building of Philadelphia's first public golf course accomplished.

« Last Edit: December 09, 2007, 02:06:21 AM by MPCirba »

MSusko

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cobb's Creek was designed by Hugh Wilson & GEORGE CRUMP, et.al.!!!!!
« Reply #442 on: December 09, 2007, 11:22:40 AM »
All,

I found an old scorecard.  It is dated August 26, 1931.  The yardages are as follows.

1. Par 5, 462
2. Par 4, 360
3. Par 4, 300
4. Par 3, 150
5. Par 4, 400
6. Par 4, 380
7. Par 4, 425
8. Par 4, 355
9. Par 4, 387
Out. Par 36, 3209
10. Par 3, 205
11. Par 5, 517
12. Par 3, 130
13. Par 5, 543
14. Par 4, 365
15. Par 4, 280
16. Par 4, 443
17. Par 3, 180
18. Par 4, 380
In. Par 35, 3043
Total. Par 71, 6252

Mark

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cobb's Creek was designed by Hugh Wilson & GEORGE CRUMP, et.al.!!!!!
« Reply #443 on: December 09, 2007, 11:26:30 AM »
All,

I found an old scorecard.  It is dated August 26, 1931.  The yardages are as follows.

1. Par 5, 462
2. Par 4, 360
3. Par 4, 300
4. Par 3, 150
5. Par 4, 400
6. Par 4, 380
7. Par 4, 425
8. Par 4, 355
9. Par 4, 387
Out. Par 36, 3209
10. Par 3, 205
11. Par 5, 517
12. Par 3, 130
13. Par 5, 543
14. Par 4, 365
15. Par 4, 280
16. Par 4, 443
17. Par 3, 180
18. Par 4, 380
In. Par 35, 3043
Total. Par 71, 6252

Mark

I was going to guess that the yardage we had from the early Inky articles of #13 being 450 was a typo and meant 540.  I think we now know the original diagram was correct with the tee behind 12 green with the drive over the creek and ending at the current #8 green.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Mike_Cirba

Re:Cobb's Creek was designed by Hugh Wilson & GEORGE CRUMP, et.al.!!!!!
« Reply #444 on: December 09, 2007, 11:43:27 AM »
Mark,

Thanks!  

I'm assuming only one set of tees was listed at that time?

It's also interesting that they seem to have already shortened a number of holes (like 7, 8, 9, 11), probably because they were too difficult for the masses.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2007, 11:45:18 AM by MPCirba »

MSusko

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Cobb's Creek was designed by Hugh Wilson & GEORGE CRUMP, et.al.!!!!!
« Reply #445 on: December 09, 2007, 11:48:19 AM »
Mike,

Yes, only one set of tees are listed.  Also, the name at the top of the card reads "Cobb's Creek Golf Links".  I have also located a card for Karakung.  It looks the same so I'm guessing it's from the same time period.  Funny thing though is that Karakung is only 11 holes at this point.

Mark

Mike_Cirba

Re:Cobb's Creek was designed by Hugh Wilson & GEORGE CRUMP, et.al.!!!!!
« Reply #446 on: December 09, 2007, 11:56:25 AM »
Mike,

Yes, only one set of tees are listed.  Also, the name at the top of the card reads "Cobb's Creek Golf Links".  I have also located a card for Karakung.  It looks the same so I'm guessing it's from the same time period.  Funny thing though is that Karakung is only 11 holes at this point.

Mark

Mark,

Yes, that's my understanding about Karakung, as well.  They opened 11 holes in 1927 with plans to continue the work.   I'm guessing the Stock Market Crash might have delayed things a bit, but then probably WPA labor took over.

By 1937 the full 18 holes were either in play or almost built from what I can see on aerials.  

Kyle Harris

Re:Cobb's Creek was designed by Hugh Wilson & GEORGE CRUMP, et.al.!!!!!
« Reply #447 on: December 09, 2007, 12:20:21 PM »
From July 16, 1916 Philadelphia Inquirer:

"The fact that there is a golf course at Cobb's Creek is due entirely to the hard efforts of the Philadelphia Golf Association. It took five years to convince the Fairmount Park Commissioners that there was an actual demand for a public links. And after the plans were decided upon Hugh Wilson, the man who laid out the two Merion courses, spent six months laying out the new public course. A.H. Smith, for years one of the most prominent members of the Huntingdon Valley Country Club, gave up his Sundays for as many months to the work of getting the course in shape."

Questions begged from that statement are whether or not the plans decided upon mean the golf course layout or the decision to finance and build the golf course.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2007, 01:17:52 PM by Kyle Harris »

Mike_Cirba

Re:Cobb's Creek was designed by Hugh Wilson & GEORGE CRUMP, et.al.!!!!!
« Reply #448 on: December 09, 2007, 01:34:41 PM »
From July 16, 1916 Philadelphia Inquirer:

"The fact that there is a golf course at Cobb's Creek is due entirely to the hard efforts of the Philadelphia Golf Association. It took five years to convince the Fairmount Park Commissioners that there was an actual demand for a public links. And after the plans were decided upon Hugh Wilson, the man who laid out the two Merion courses, spent six months laying out the new public course. A.H. Smith, for years one of the most prominent members of the Huntingdon Valley Country Club, gave up his Sundays for as many months to the work of getting the course in shape."

Questions begged from that statement are whether or not the plans decided upon mean the golf course layout or the decision to finance and build the golf course.

Kyle,

That's some great stuff.  That bunch of articles Joe sent to us are a goldmine of cool info.

Interesting that just six months prior to what you quoted the same author "Joe Bunker" (Tilly) wrote;



It seems Wilson moved up much more in the pecking order in the six months that followed, which included the opening of May 30, 1916.

Kyle Harris

Re:Cobb's Creek was designed by Hugh Wilson & GEORGE CRUMP, et.al.!!!!!
« Reply #449 on: December 09, 2007, 01:36:29 PM »
My skepticism from yesterday is fading, but I can't help but wonder if Wilson moving up in the pecking order had something to do with George Crump going Henry David Thoreau at Walden around that time...

Did you get my voicemail?

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