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Mike_Cirba

Re:Cobb's Creek was designed by Hugh Wilson & GEORGE CRUMP, et.al.!!!!!
« Reply #375 on: December 05, 2007, 04:14:56 PM »
Kyle,

I do understand, but from the standpoint of trying to restore something of historical significance, and then getting buy-in from multiple empowered parties, I think that having the tag-team of Wilson & Crump involved in the design is not to be underestimated for it's historical value.

It's not like either of these hometown guys designed a whole lot of courses!!  ;D

Kyle Harris

Re:Cobb's Creek was designed by Hugh Wilson & GEORGE CRUMP, et.al.!!!!!
« Reply #376 on: December 05, 2007, 04:24:09 PM »
They didn't, but I could tell a musical laymen to go buy a record from Paul Gilbert and Yngwe Malsteem and they'd have no clue how significant that is.

Ultimately, this is going to boil down to how much money can be made on the investment. Think of feasibility first, then move on to the attribution.

JESII

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Re:Cobb's Creek was designed by Hugh Wilson & GEORGE CRUMP, et.al.!!!!!
« Reply #377 on: December 05, 2007, 04:26:57 PM »
"IF YOU BUILD IT, THEY WILL COME..."[/i][/color]
« Last Edit: December 05, 2007, 04:27:16 PM by JES II »

Kyle Harris

Re:Cobb's Creek was designed by Hugh Wilson & GEORGE CRUMP, et.al.!!!!!
« Reply #378 on: December 05, 2007, 04:27:36 PM »
"IF YOU BUILD IT, THEY WILL COME..."[/color]

I'd love to think so. The problem is building it.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Cobb's Creek was designed by Hugh Wilson & GEORGE CRUMP, et.al.!!!!!
« Reply #379 on: December 05, 2007, 04:31:18 PM »
Kyle,

The funding of any Capital improvements is almost certainly going to require private initiative for a host of reasons.  

Think of the Art Museum model.  

This can also be MUCH more valuable to the city, FPC, and BCG than just the profit margin at the course.   It's strategic...not just operational.

Peter Pallotta

Re:Cobb's Creek was designed by Hugh Wilson & GEORGE CRUMP, et.al.!!!!!
« Reply #380 on: December 05, 2007, 04:50:06 PM »
Mike - maybe you can make this part of your pitch. You can tell them that some 90 years ago it was outside forces that pressed for the creation of a public course, just as today it's outside forces that are pressing for restoration and renewal. Tell them it's good PR. Here's some of the press from 1917:

"The Quaker City was among the last of America's big cities to build a public course, and it is to be regretted that it seems to be the last to realize the true significance of one. For a number of years requests for the building of a public course were unheeded. Probably the ridicule and badgering of the press did more to secure the course than years of supplication. Possibly a bit of the same medicine might be a good thing at this time. Those who find it necessary to partake of their meals at an Automat usually do not have the price of terrapin in their clothes".

Now, if I could only figure out what a terrapin is, and why it cost so much in 1917...

Peter
« Last Edit: December 05, 2007, 04:54:04 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Kyle Harris

Re:Cobb's Creek was designed by Hugh Wilson & GEORGE CRUMP, et.al.!!!!!
« Reply #381 on: December 05, 2007, 04:53:45 PM »
I have no idea about this, but how crowded are the city courses anyway?

If Cobb's is already packed, the city may full well decide to not fix what ain't broke, as it were.

We talked last night about the need for private initiative and I am fully on board with that idea. The only problem is getting the city to realize the importance of making these changes.

I need to rummage through the emails as well as I have a feeling some answers may lie there.

BCrosby

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Re:Cobb's Creek was designed by Hugh Wilson & GEORGE CRUMP, et.al.!!!!!
« Reply #382 on: December 05, 2007, 05:08:56 PM »

Ultimately, this is going to boil down to how much money can be made on the investment. Think of feasibility first, then move on to the attribution.


I would have agreed with you a year ago. But not now.

In Atlanta I am working with a group trying to improve the quality of the city's public courses. We have discovered that a number of local institutions are interested in helping with the funding of restorations and improvements. It is still early days but we are encouraged.

We have set up a conservancy to work with the city, donors and the course operators towards that end.

So I think it can be done. Don't automatically assume that investments in public courses will be conditioned on a return on capital.

Bob


Willie_Dow

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Re:Cobb's Creek was designed by Hugh Wilson & GEORGE CRUMP, et.al.!!!!!
« Reply #383 on: December 05, 2007, 05:58:40 PM »
Bob

What might be the tax advantages for a business in the city to benefit from their participation in a reconstruction project like Cobbs ?  Is this something that the city might offer a reduction in their city taxes for participation ?

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re:Cobb's Creek was designed by Hugh Wilson & GEORGE CRUMP, et.al.!!!!!
« Reply #384 on: December 05, 2007, 06:25:22 PM »
Kyle

I understand from Mark Susko that Cobbs is pretty busy in season on Fridays,Saturdays and Sundays. During the week is another story.

I have no information on play at the other city courses.

"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Doug Braunsdorf

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Re:Cobb's Creek was designed by Hugh Wilson & GEORGE CRUMP, et.al.!!!!!
« Reply #385 on: December 05, 2007, 09:22:23 PM »
Jim,

  You should have Joe Bausch email you the articles he has found. My sense is that noblesse oblige was a big factor in those days. Today I'm not sure that value is as prevalent.

Mike;

  I think the other thing to consider is, and I was thinking about this on my train ride home today, how the suburbs and the city are not as connected as perhaps they once were.  

I have had a number of discussions about this with Kyle and others since relocating here last year.  It's my perception that the suburbs here kind of function more independently of the city-which may be the case also in NY and the NY suburbs where I grew up.  It's my perception that the NY metro area is more connected to NY.  I'm not sure why.  May be regional bias.  Stilll,  I think, where this may tie in is that the prominent Philadelphians in golf at the time may have lived in the city or had more ties to the city.  Today, I would think many involved in local golf don't have the same ties to the city.

I may be wrong, but I'm thinking out loud and it may stimulate dialogue.  Again, I didn't grow up down here, but I know a lot of people down here who had grown up in the city and moved out to the suburbs.  

Although I am a suburb resident currently, I think, in instances like this and others, blending relations between the city and suburbs may work well.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2007, 09:23:37 PM by Doug Braunsdorf »
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Geoffrey_Walsh

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Re:Cobb's Creek was designed by Hugh Wilson & GEORGE CRUMP, et.al.!!!!!
« Reply #386 on: December 05, 2007, 10:07:24 PM »
Doug,

I think you are spot on.  The suburbs have distanced themsleves from the city but I think that perception is changing.  An aging population, improvements in transporation, increased energy prices and urban development have brought a number of the suburbanites back into city.

In the golf world, I give credit to Mark Peterson for reaching out to the Philadelphia Publinks and allowing them to be an affiliate member club which finally gave the public golfer an avenue to participate in GAP events.  However, the relationship between the public golfers and GAP should be much closer IMHO.  The history of public golf in this area which we just uncovered bears that out.  I'm not sure how this evolves from here but this project is a wonderful opportunity to bring GAP back into the fold.  They should be a part of this as should the Philadelphia Publinks GA.

mike_malone

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Re:Cobb's Creek was designed by Hugh Wilson & GEORGE CRUMP, et.al.!!!!!
« Reply #387 on: December 06, 2007, 09:25:00 AM »
 I drove into the driving range parking lot yesterday and eyed the ridge that runs along the current #7 and #8. That can be a very interesting feature to use , particularly for a par five with a tee in the original spot. One would need to decide to layup over the ridge well back and having a view of the green or staying below the ridge leaving a blind pitch.

   There are many possibilities for this hole, but I think the use of the ridge will make it a unique hole on this course and afford more challenging and fun shots.
AKA Mayday

David Federman

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Re:Cobb's Creek was designed by Hugh Wilson & GEORGE CRUMP, et.al.!!!!!
« Reply #388 on: December 06, 2007, 09:39:04 AM »
An article published ten years ago by Joe Logan (Philly golf reporter) -not much has changed:


Cobbs Creek Golf Club
Despite flaws, still a gem of a course
By Joe Logan

INQUIRER STAFF WRITER

It's probably fair to say that more golfers have played enjoyable rounds at Cobbs Creek Golf Club over its 81-year history than at any other course in the Philadelphia area.

At a glance  
Getting There: Cobbs Creek is at 72d Street and Lansdowne Avenue. Call 215-877-8707.
Greens Fees: Weekends and holidays, $35 to walk, $50 to ride; Weekdays $29 to walk, $44 to ride.

Carts: Walking permitted any time.

Spikes: Metal permitted.

Amenities: Well-stocked pro shop, snack bar, driving range, putting green. Outings welcome.

Rating: Crown jewel of city courses, needs tender loving care.

Information accurate as of 8/15/2002

 
It's also fair to say that at one time or another over the years, many of those same golfers have found themselves fuming, seething and wondering why they went to Cobbs in the first place. This is because the crown jewel of the six city-owned municipal courses can get more crowded than a Tokyo subway car. Because some golfers can't fathom having to hammer a tee into bare ground or fix crater-size ball marks left by previous groups.

Because of fairways burning out in hot weather for lack of a sprinkler system, and the choking waves of dust left by carts with no cart paths to follow.

Because of neighborhood kids who wander the course with impunity, sometimes acting as if the paying customers are the intruders.

We could go on.

It's all part of the catch-22 and, yes, even the charm, of Cobbs Creek.

The thing is, what makes the course such a valuable asset to the city -- its affordability, convenient location, classic layout, open arms to any and all golfers -- also is precisely what can make a round there so maddening.

At Cobbs Creek, it's not uncommon to be transfixed by the grandeur of No. 12, the awesome 638-yard par-5 hole designed by Hugh Wilson, who also laid out world-famous Merion East.

Yet it's also not unusual to find yourself searching for a blade of grass on the tee, all the while wondering if that guy in the middle of the fairway teaching his girlfriend how to play will ever notice you. Will he ever think to let you play through? Does he even know to let you play through?

"It's all part of Tigermania," assistant pro Michael Kummer said last week.

"People see Tiger, and they just want to get out on the course. It's great for us, but at the same time, people come out without knowing the rules or etiquette of the game. When somebody walks up to the counter, there's just no way to know whether they know to fix ball marks."

Tigermania? Certainly, Tiger Woods' phenomenal rise may have contributed to, even exacerbated, the situation at Cobbs Creek. But anyone who has played there over the years can testify that it has been this way at least since Tiger was in diapers.

And that's a shame. Cobbs Creek is like a grand old mansion gone to seed. Underneath it all, it's a wonderful layout. And, truth be told, the course is probably in as good a condition as it has been in years -- during a round last week, only the first green and several tees were in bad shape.

But it could be so much more. With a healthy dose of tender loving care -- or, more accurately, cash -- Cobbs Creek could be a showpiece.

None of this is necessarily blaming the people who run the place -- Golf Corp. of Dallas, which has a long-term management contract with the city. Golf Corp. is caught between a need for cash to improve the place and a city that wants to keep greens fees as affordable as possible.

The result, of course, is that Cobbs Creek, like that grand old mansion, gets the occasional metaphorical coat of paint but none of the badly needed structural improvements.

Will things ever change? Probably not.

Fact is, unless they reduce the number of rounds played and increase the greens fees, there are no simple ways to transform Cobbs Creek into the course it could be. And so it remains what it is: a crown jewel without most of its luster.


* * *
As aggravating as that can be, if you play the course when it's not too crowded, Cobbs can provide a pleasant round of golf. There are, after all, several terrific holes.

Is there, for instance, a better par 4 in the area than No. 3, with its 493 yards of treachery in the form of a creek that runs right up the middle of the fairway? From the tee, do you play it safe and take it left of the creek, or do you chance it to the right for the short iron into the green?

No. 8, though only 311 yards, is another terrific par 4 -- uphill, fairway mounds and a hungry bunker guarding a small, flat green. Or how about the 447-yard 10th, with its sloping fairway and tricky second shot into a green with bunkers left and back?

The 12th, at 638 yards, is perhaps the longest par 5 in the area. Even from the elevated tee, nobody, with the possible exception of Tiger, is going to reach this green in two. Still, perhaps the most fiendish hole on the course is the 486-yard 13th, an uphill beast with a sloping fairway that kicks most any tee shot far to the right. Problem is, for a decent shot at the green, you're advised to drive up the left side. Even then, the green is hard to hit. It's a wonderful golf hole.

As it lies, Cobbs is a treasure. Maybe, just maybe, it will someday become even grander.

Originally published August 24, 1997

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re:Cobb's Creek was designed by Hugh Wilson & GEORGE CRUMP, et.al.!!!!!
« Reply #389 on: December 06, 2007, 09:53:35 AM »
David,

Thanks for posting Joe Logan's review from 1997.

As noted after our recent visit to Cobbs last Saturday, the greens are in very good shape except for the 3rd. The bunkers need a lot of work.

When was the last time you played there?

"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

mike_malone

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Re:Cobb's Creek was designed by Hugh Wilson & GEORGE CRUMP, et.al.!!!!!
« Reply #390 on: December 06, 2007, 10:38:34 AM »
 It seems clear that #17 stays. The placement of the tee will provide some fun discussion.

   It's now mostly about #13. I suggest those of us with an interest get back out there and knock around fairway location for that hole.

   I read some interest in using the creek on the left, even possibly having an alternate green over there. Now that's a creative guy.
AKA Mayday

David Federman

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Re:Cobb's Creek was designed by Hugh Wilson & GEORGE CRUMP, et.al.!!!!!
« Reply #391 on: December 06, 2007, 11:11:06 AM »
Steve-

I played often at Cobbs and Karakung with my Dad in the mid to late 60's. My father grew up in West Philly. Didn't play much when I went away to PSU in the 70's, but did play there in the late 80's with some colleagues from my law firm at that time. I don't remember a whole lot except for using my driver to drive tees into the teeing areas and using Wilson Staff or Titleist x-outs. My clubs were Sam Snead Blue Ridge woods with Sarazen irons.

mike_malone

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Re:Cobb's Creek was designed by Hugh Wilson & GEORGE CRUMP, et.al.!!!!!
« Reply #392 on: December 06, 2007, 11:20:36 AM »
 Am I correct in saying that the driving range must be recovered in order to make this whole thing work. If you change the routing back to the original and end up on the #12 green with nowhere to go you are screwed.
AKA Mayday

MSusko

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Re:Cobb's Creek was designed by Hugh Wilson & GEORGE CRUMP, et.al.!!!!!
« Reply #393 on: December 06, 2007, 11:37:45 AM »
Mike,

Yes, you would have to get rid of the range to make room for the 13th fairway and well as the tee for 14.

Mark

David Federman

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Re:Cobb's Creek was designed by Hugh Wilson & GEORGE CRUMP, et.al.!!!!!
« Reply #394 on: December 06, 2007, 12:10:09 PM »
Are you folks talking about the driving range off City Ave adjacent to Cobbs with the mini golf course and batting cages? If so, what is the ownership/operating arrangement for that facility? Is is part of the city - owned property?

Sorry if this question has been answered somewhere else on this site.

Bill Hagel

Re:Cobb's Creek was designed by Hugh Wilson & GEORGE CRUMP, et.al.!!!!!
« Reply #395 on: December 06, 2007, 12:20:57 PM »
Owned by the City and Operated by (soon to be ) Billy Casper Golf.  Unfortunately it apparently is a money maker.  May need to relocate it by upgrading the range on Lansdowne - but the cages and mini-golf will be lost (although I'm guessing that generates way less revenue than the range).

Bill Hagel

Re:Cobb's Creek was designed by Hugh Wilson & GEORGE CRUMP, et.al.!!!!!
« Reply #396 on: December 06, 2007, 12:27:44 PM »
David

If you haven't seen the original routing go back a few pages to the Joe Bausch posting of it from an old newspaper account.  The 13th runs through the current City Ave. driving range with it's green being the current 8th green. The former 14th was a Par 3 facing west back over the creek (it's likely in any renovation 14 will be re-placed by the current 17th, because even though 17 wasn't a Wilson original it is a tremendous hole). Then the original 15th (todays 9th) was much longer with the tee in the current parking lot of the range.

For any renovation, it will be critical to annex the driving range as 13 lynchpins the re-routing.        

Mike_Cirba

Re:Cobb's Creek was designed by Hugh Wilson & GEORGE CRUMP, et.al.!!!!!
« Reply #397 on: December 06, 2007, 12:30:27 PM »
The wild thing about the old descriptions of the 13th I've been reading is that it was a blind shot, with the golfer having to negotiate "hills".

I'm beginning to wonder if the slope from the current seventh green didn't end less abruptly than is the case at present, but instead ran over into the range for a bit.

Joe Bausch

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Re:Cobb's Creek was designed by Hugh Wilson & GEORGE CRUMP, et.al.!!!!!
« Reply #398 on: December 06, 2007, 12:31:53 PM »
The wild thing about the old descriptions of the 13th I've been reading is that it was a blind shot, with the golfer having to negotiate "hills".

I'm beginning to wonder if the slope from the current seventh green didn't end less abruptly than is the case at present, but instead ran over into the range for a bit.

I have little doubt that this is true.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

mike_malone

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Re:Cobb's Creek was designed by Hugh Wilson & GEORGE CRUMP, et.al.!!!!!
« Reply #399 on: December 06, 2007, 12:54:45 PM »
 That hill in back of #7 does look artificially rounded.

   The reshaping of that land could create an opportunity for creativity for the consulting architect (along with his gang of theives, of course!)


   I think the fact there is no irrigation at present helps in the rerouting cause; one can't hold it up because they need to move some pipes.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2007, 12:55:13 PM by michael_malone »
AKA Mayday

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