Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams

[Mike_Cirba]

The writing style is certainly similar.

Paging Phil Young!!

[Joe Bausch]

(as promised from last night, here is the original routing from a 1915 Philadelphia Inquirer article).

Here it is!  It IS a big deal!

Carl Spackler

[mike_malone]

Jim,
  I think the basis is that eventually if one does not invest in an income producing asset it goes bad. The FPC has shown some concern recently about the deteriorating condition of some of its assets, and many of these don't even provide income. I think that as they explore the origins of Cobbs they will see its role in the recreational life of the city., even the image of the city at large. I believe previous proposals from the management companies have asked for modest green fee increases with attempts to hold the line for residents and juniors. This is only a guess on my part, but I think the previous discussions did not properly tap into the emotional part of the sale.

   

[David Federman]

Given the rich history of Cobbs as a great inner city muni which was essentially Charley SIfford's "home" course at a time when he and no other blacks could get near (except to caddy) the private courses which we discuss regularly on GCA, perhaps the Tiger Woods Foundation and/or the First Tee Foundation would be interested in this restoration project.

Over the years through various management agreements and lessors, many attempts have been made to at least recondition the course, only to fail for lack of funding or attention. It seems that in addition to bringing Cobbs back to its original state, a significant problem would be to maintain it once it was restored, while at the same time keeping the greens fees at a level that would be affordable to the average golfer who plays it now.

This would require some kind of subsidy and a greens fee structure that would keep it affordable to the average Philly resident Cobbs player and attractive enough to entice the non-resident golfer to play at a higher rate.

This might be something that Tiger might very well be interested in-it is right up his alley, given his keen awareness of the history of black players and the role the munis played in his own development.

[JESII]

How many rounds does Cobbs get?

What would be a realistic maximum?

[mike_malone]

 Dave,


    The core group of gca.com wackos thinks that the most important thing is restore Cobbs and maintain it. But, we also understand that the decision makers don't share our passion for architecture.

   We have discussed the heritage of black golfers at Cobbs and are trying to see how this all can come together.

   I think we feel there are numerous groups that could be mobilized behind this effort.

   Which are the most effective to energize ? That needs more research and thought.

[JESII]

The Fairmount Park Commission will be the most important and effective group to energize...but you'll need the solution after you've presented the problem...

[mike_malone]

 Jim,

   That is all in  proposals from previous management groups. We have confidence that Billy Casper Golf can make the financial case well, but our feeling is that the FPC and other powers in the city need to see this as beneficial to THEIR goals.

[Joe Bausch]

How many rounds does Cobbs get?

What would be a realistic maximum?

I'll let Mark Susko answer the first question.

I can tell you that on Nov 7 (Wed) I teed off at 1:30 PM on a day that was sunny and 50 degrees and hardly anybody was on the course.  Places like Glen Mills are mostly filled on a day like that, while others like Paxson Hollow would have a good turnout as well.  If Cobb's was restored, and more importantly, kept in good condition, all kinds of people from the tri-state area would come and play it, IMO.

[mike_malone]

 We often talk on this site about how important routing is to the quality of a golf course. When we see the original Cobbs or the slightly different one of a few years later it is all about the routing.

     I think that the old routing would appeal much more to golfers seeking fun and challenge.  Call it the Philly Doak Scale---willing to travel 30 miles to play!!!  I can see some of those in the Bethpage Black parking lot pulling out and driving to Philly. (BTW the old Cobbs routing kicks BB's ass.)

    This transformation might show some of the doubters on this site that quality architecture is a factor in the success of some public courses. The average avid golfer might not talk about great architecture like we do, but they know it when they play it.

    None of our efforts would be worth the time if we did not feel that this course must be restored.

[Mike_Cirba]

The Fairmount Park Commission will be the most important and effective group to energize...but you'll need the solution after you've presented the problem...

Jim,

I would hope that the Fairmount Park Commission and the new Mayor and GAP and even the USGA would see national articles such as this one part of problem that needs fixing prior to the eyes of the sporting world being on Philadelphia in 5 and a half years.

Let's remember that this is essentially the only other design by the creator of Merion, now seemingly working along with the creator of our other national treasure, Pine Valley.

http://www.travelgolf.com/departments/coursereviews/pennsylvania/cobbs-creek-golf-club-olde-course-philadelphia-bad-conditions-5771.htm

[Mike_Cirba]

We often talk on this site about how important routing is to the quality of a golf course. When we see the original Cobbs or the slightly different one of a few years later it is all about the routing.

     I think that the old routing would appeal much more to golfers seeking fun and challenge.  Call it the Philly Doak Scale---willing to travel 30 miles to play!!!  I can see some of those in the Bethpage Black parking lot pulling out and driving to Philly. (BTW the old Cobbs routing kicks BB's ass.)

    This transformation might show some of the doubters on this site that quality architecture is a factor in the success of some public courses. The average avid golfer might not talk about great architecture like we do, but they know it when they play it.

    None of our efforts would be worth the time if we did not feel that this course must be restored.

Mike,

Man, you're in an eloquent mood this morning!   What's gotten into you?  

Agreed about the fundamental point being a restoration to what Hugh Wilson with AB Smith and George Crump designed, which is a tremendous course!  

[mike_malone]

 Mike,

  Wayne Morrison has been posting under my name.

[Mike_Cirba]

From a PhillyNews blog article prior to the mayoral election and othr recent events;



How golf can show us the way
Quick quiz, hotshot. Name the all six of the city's public golf courses.

Give up?

Cobbs Creek Golf Club (Olde)
Cobbs Creek Golf Club (Karakung)
Franklin D. Roosevelt (FDR) Golf Club
Juniata Golf Club
John F. Byrne Golf Club
Walnut Lane Golf Club

Anyway, the reason I bring it up is because of a couple sentences from this article in the News Gleaner:

For over twenty years, all of the city courses were run through a concession agreement with Meadowbrook Golf Inc., which paid the city for the privilege of running the courses. But the company pulled out of the agreement in 2004. Since April 2005, the courses have been managed by Liberty Golf Group, who charges the city for its services.

So for 20+ years the city government was able to get a company to pay to run the courses but now the city is paying? I don't know the background but couldn't the city have held out a little longer so that at the very least, they could get someone to run the courses for free?

EDITED TO ADD: The Inquirer picked up on the sad plight of the Juniata course in a column on Sunday. I'm not saying that golf courses should be a major issue in the mayor's race, just that this story is emblematic of a lot of issues, Fairmount Park and otherwise, that have festered due to a lack of vision by our elected leaders:

Although he [Fairmount Park Commission Chief of Staff] won't come right out and say it, the truth is that until politicians and top managers stop dragging their feet and decide on the long-term fate of the courses, nothing much is going to change. Until then, he's got to make sure the fairways get cut and the golfers keep coming back.

Problem is, it's become a catch-22: The only money the city is willing to sink into maintaining the courses is what comes in from greens fees. But with rounds inching downward, in part

[mike_malone]

 Now that we are on page 11  I may have miised this statement, but the rerouting would not be an expensive part of the overall upgrade. We have determined that all of the greens are there, if you keep 17 as is. So, work on the tees , scrub tree removal ,and moving the driving range to the Cobbs location accounts for most of the cost for the routing restoration.

[Peter Pallotta]

Gents - just wanted to say how much fun it's been reading the excitement and collective knowledge in/of your posts. Good for you guys!

Reading them I got caught up enough to spend an hour last night looking for Cobb's Creek information in the old journals (you fellas no doubt have all those sources and more). What struck me was the trepidation over the likely lack of golf etiquette and skill of a public course's clientele, and then the surprise/dismay (after the first year) that the course had hosted some 80,000 rounds, with many of those rounds taking six and a half hours. I think quite early on there were questions about whether this undoubtedly pretty and quality course was too hard for the players it was designed for.

Anyway, good work all!

Peter

[Joe Bausch]

Anybody interested in joining me for a round at Cobb's this weekend?  Both days are predicted to be 45° or so and sunny.  We could walk the course and do some navigating, which would be a blast w/ all this new knowledge.

[mike_malone]

 I ain't goin' back there until they restore it !!!!

[Bill Hagel]

Anybody interested in joining me for a round at Cobb's this weekend?  Both days are predicted to be 45° or so and sunny.  We could walk the course and do some navigating, which would be a blast w/ all this new knowledge.

Joe

I can play on Saturday.  Let me know.

[Bruce Katona]

The last few pages of this are great work and research, but it goes back to what I wrote just prior to the filed trip last weekend...."Who with political clout and/or $$$ will champion the cause of getting this work done ?"  I don't believe The First Tee has these type of  funds, so who knows Tiger or his business agent and can arrange for 15 minutes of his time to make the pitch to have him be the "face" of the restoration effort?

If no one, how does the group get Peter Hill and his team at BCGM to raise the funds to get this done properly?

[Mike_Cirba]

Bruce,

Those are indeed some of the relevant questions and I do want to say that we are pursuing a number of avenues to make this happen.

For the present, we'd like to keep these efforts a bit behind the scenes, but I would also strongly encourage anyone with suggestions, contacts, or any other potentially helpful ideas to either add them here or contact me privately at mik4cj@yahoo.com

Thanks!!

[Kyle Harris]

"Laid out" could mean any number of things from constructed, designed, agronomic consultations, or helped hit test shots.

Remember, newspapers are written for laymen in very general terms. Let's be careful with specific attributions. Perhaps the only thing Crump did was hit test shots and offer opinions on landing areas.

We need a "point man" kind of attribution.  

[Mike_Cirba]

"Laid out" could mean any number of things from constructed, designed, agronomic consultations, or helped hit test shots.

Remember, newspapers are written for laymen in very general terms. Let's be careful with specific attributions. Perhaps the only thing Crump did was hit test shots and offer opinions on landing areas.

We need a "point man" kind of attribution.  

Kyle,

Would it make a difference in terms of "Laid Out" if Joe Bunker proves to be Tilly?  

The "point man" was Jesse T. Vodges, who was Chief Engineer of the Fairmount Park Commission, and who played the Joe Burbeck role in this story.  

I'm not even sure if Vodges played golf.

Instead, the GAP formed a committee of "experts" to "Lay out" the course as a civic responsibility pro bono to the Fairmount Park Commission, to then be constructed by Vodges and his crews.   This committee seems to have included Hugh Wilson, Ab Smith, George Crump, and George Vaudner, and possibly others versed in both the game and course building.

But, I agree that having additional info would be helpful and that's why we're going to hit the Fairmount archives sometime this month.   Wouldn't it be wonderful to find the original plans??  

I just don't want this thread to get into the semantic exercise that we had with the Macdonald/Merion thread and I think "laid out" is pretty clear here as a collaborative effort amongst the GAP appointed experts.

[Kyle Harris]

Mike,

This is a bit before that time - but Tillie somewhat abused the term "laid out" during his PGA visits from what I can recall. Rather, he allowed an attribution when he may have suggested removing a bunker, for example.

Just sayin' is all. Keeping the eagerness focused on what is on the ground instead of who did what...

Hell, Crump and gang aren't going to come back and change anything anyway so I think the focus should be on restoring to archived plans based on the aerials and then work out the attributions.

It's a damn good golf course regardless, even if my great grandmother routed it.

[JESII]

Kyle,

I think accurate attribution on the front end could be very helpful...