[Bill Hagel]

So 17 never existed in 1916.

[Mike_Cirba]

No wait - I retract.  Am I reading this right?

We thought 14 was a Par 4 (todays 9th) with the tee in the Driving Range Parking Lot - This says it was a 175 yard one shotter.

And 17 - 450 yards???

What did we miss guys?

 

Bill,

Please see my explanation to Mike about 14.

17 was today's 11th with a tee right behind today's 10th green.

[Mike_Cirba]

I'm having a hard time believing that Wilson would make a golfer walk all the way through the valley on today's #17 just to get to the 18th tee.  Is there a possibility that the yardages and pars are wrong?

Joe,  can you post the entire article?  I'd like to read it in it's entirety.

Mark

Mark,

Yes, it definitely seems to be a routing glitch (which thankfully was soon rectified by creating the 17th!  ), but the article is pretty clear.

It is almost illegible and I had to bring it up to 200% size on PDF to read it.   Still, even then it's a challenge.

If you shoot me your email I'll forward you a copy.

[Joe Bausch]

I find it interesting that the since deleted par 3 14th hole, which from the description had the green at or near the corner of City Line and the train track, was probably just a sand wedge away from the 8th green at McCall!

[Joe Bausch]

Joe,  can you post the entire article?  I'd like to read it in it's entirety.

Mark

Send me your e-mail addy and I'll send you the PDF. I don't know if there are reproduction rights for this article so I don't want to post it.  BillH, send me your e-mail as well.  Heck, anybody that wants it contact me and I'll send it along.

[Mike_Cirba]

To wit, it says;

"Then comes a long ramble down into the wooded ravine and up the steep hill on the opposite side, a real climb that sometime will be obviated. (hah!)  The 18th, set at a bend, also has it's tee and green near Arch St.,  It drops you close to Lansdowne Ave., and within hailing distance of the locker houses and third tee."

[mike_malone]

 

 Did you catch the statement that for #4 you cross the creek twice?

[Joe Bausch]

For the 10th hole, the par 3, to be 235 yards would likely mean it uses a tee right behind the current 7th green.  Currently the par 3 8th hole has multiple tee boxes, I think, with the lesser used one being the one needed.

My guesstimate is that the 13th did play to the current 8th green, then the since deleted 14th hole had its tee real close to the rightmost booths for the current driving range with the green left of the creek and pretty close to route 1.  This would leave a pretty short walk to the tee for the uphill 15th (today's 9th) with the tee located on the other side of the entrance road to the range to give it the length of 360 yards according to the article.

[MSusko]

This is amazing!  I would have never guessed that 17 was not original.  Joe, well done and thank you for bring light to this.  

Now here's the question.  Can we find the site of the new original 14th green?

Mark

[Joe Bausch]

This is amazing!  I would have never guessed that 17 was not original.  Joe, well done and thank you for bring light to this.  

Now here's the question.  Can we find the site of the new original 14th green?

Mark

We can try.  What kind of detection techniques can be used besides visual?  Any evidence of traps left by examining soil, etc, is that possible?  And when did irrigation systems come about on golf courses?  If they were available back then, could remnants still be in place?  Let me know if you are working tomorrow afternoon Mark as I could make a quick trip down to do some walking with you.

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Why was the green for the lost #13 not set on the creek like the current 3rd, 4th, 5th & 6th holes?  It seems like a par 5 with the creek meandering down the entire left side and a green set where the current batting cages are makes for a better hole (think a longer version of #5 at Merion).  Couple that with the next tee located in the current parking lot and it becomes more walkable.  Is it possible that green was moved up the hill at some point?

I knew Mr. Wilson wouldn't let that creek go unused in that corner of the property!

Great article, Joe!  I need some time to take this all in.

[MSusko]

I just looked at a picture from 1935.  You can see a clearing that was used for the 13th fairway and one that was used for the 14th green.  Now knowing this new info and using this picture I'm sure we can find the original 13th tee and 14th green.

Mark

[mike_malone]

 Possibly there were  a few too many fronting creeks on the par threes in the original. But, some holes would have been veeeery good. #3 already known as a wonderful short hole , #5 as a unique par four in the way the creek is used , #6 a classic uphill par four , #7 we already know its appeal; it is often seen as the best hole now but back then had tough competition!! ,#9 would use the slope in a very appealing way for the drive to a green we already love , #10 would rival #10 at Rolling Green!!!, #11 would be all world , requiring three well struck shots and the proper use of the slope to run the ball on the green , #12 would be relatively common today but a memorable one then, as the article says ,how good was #13 ? was it like #12 at Torresdale or #9 at North Hills with an angled carry , we can only speculate on #14, and the remaining holes #15 ,#16 , and the approach to #18 are already fun as we play them today.


   The title of the article says it all---

   " One of the finest and best laid out in the country"

[mike_malone]

 So, now we have a restoration controversy. ---the original routing without #17 or the later version including it as opposed to #14---hmmm.

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

It would take an amazing hole to remove #17 in my mind.  it would have to be almost twice as good because the course becomes less walkable.  Keep in mind, the lost par 3 was gone by the time the '28 Public Links came around only 12 years later.  That was probably for a reason.

[MSusko]

The big question is....Who designed today's #17.

[mike_malone]

 If #17 is kept I get more interested that #18 tee should be just in back of #17 green  with a blind tee shot down into the valley for that tricky approach to #18 green. It also would eliminate that long walk to #18 tee.

[mike_malone]

 Mark,

  I think it was Harvey Cirba.

[Joe Bausch]

The big question is....Who designed today's #17.

I thought it was George Thomas Cirba-Fazio.  Mike's step grandfather.  

[Joe Bausch]

If #17 is kept I get more interested that #18 tee should be just in back of #17 green  with a blind tee shot down into the valley for that tricky approach to #18 green. It also would eliminate that long walk to #18 tee.

For me lengthening the 18th is worth considering to better protect the players on #3 tee.  The way people bomb tees shots now, moving the tee back would be a good move.  I think it could be taken back some, with tree removal, but leave the tree line left to protect those people on that one Karakung green nearby.

[mike_malone]

 That huge fairway that is shown on the 1930 photo is one of my favorite things about these old classic courses. If #18 tee created a blind tee shot with Joe's safety issues addressed for Karakung it creates some interesting outcomes for the drive. If you don't catch it you are on the downslope;if you miss it right a wider fairway pushes you farther right and farther from the hole.

[mike_malone]

 I think as a compensation for our work on this course we should require a seat at the table with the consulting architect.

[Joe Bausch]

Would it be unreasonable to assume the Philly Inky actually has those original photos used in that article?  Or at least the negatives?  Any GCAers have an 'in' with that outfit to investigate?

[Bill Hagel]

Boys

My head is spinning a little with all the re-re routing we've done over the past 2 days.

Can someone verify the following starting with the 13th.

13 - 450 yard - Par 4
Tee left of Todays 6th Green - Fairway adjacent to the creek and green somewher near the current baseball batting cages.

14 - 175 yard -  Par 3
Lost tee and green but parrallell to City Ave. (could this have played to the current 8th green?
If not - then the 8th green was put in somewhere between 1916 and the mid 1930's - right

15 - 360 yard - Par 4

Current 9th hole except tee is approixmately 100 yards further back.

16 - 315 yard - Par 4
current 10th hole

17 - 450 yard Par 4
Current 11th hole

18 - 380 yard - Par 4

Current 18th hole but tee approx. 30 yards further back

Is that right?
 
 

[mike_malone]

 I think the present #8 green was #13 green

  The article says the #14 green was near McCall at the end of the property.
     #15-#16-#17 original as you said.
 Statement in article that #18 tee was near Arch St., which I interpret to somewhere left of current #11 tee. Article says you had to walk down in the general direction of present #17.

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