Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams

[Joe Bausch]

Mark, this old layout you and Mike have described sounds just wonderful.  I'll bet if the restoration and rehabilation of the layout ever happens, Cobb's would immediately become one of the best public courses in the area.

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Great job on determing the original routing, Mark.  I had always heard that the tee on the current #16 was down that hill but I never connected that it would have meant a blind tee shot played from the current #6 tee.

What I find interesting is how one can pick up during the round that a hole has been changed from its original design.  #8, #9 and #16 have always felt that way to me and now I know why.  It's almost like that "disturbance in the Force" feeling in Star Wars.

Two questions that jump out at me:

Is #9 a better hole at its current length?  It now brings every score into play from 2 to 8 because you can drive the green.  Moving the tee back 40 yds to its original length takes that option away.

Why was the green for the lost #13 not set on the creek like the current 3rd, 4th, 5th & 6th holes?  It seems like a par 5 with the creek meandering down the entire left side and a green set where the current batting cages are makes for a better hole (think a longer version of #5 at Merion).  Couple that with the next tee located in the current parking lot and it becomes more walkable.  Is it possible that green was moved up the hill at some point?

Finally, it appears on the Google aerial that the darker, bigger pines must have been newer trees planted at the time of the re-routing.  My guess is the trees to the right of #6 green, right of #7 green or short left of #16 green are all examples.

[Joe Bausch]

GW, thanks for an informative post.  If I may:

1.  I still think #9 would be a better hole w/ the tee back in the driving range parking lot.  If I can drive the green (which I did the last time I played there), then this hole has got to be longer.    From say 350 yards, which is just a guess on my part, it makes you think about busting one to have an uphill lie to a small green with a SW, or 'laying up' to a flatter part of the fairway to have a full short iron in.

2.  Your question about the location of the green for the current #8/old #13 intrigues me.  I've looked at Google maps to see what I think is Cobb's Creek running at the edge of the driving range, which makes your question so good.  But I've played w/ some guys at McCall that indicate the creek goes through their course!  Can that be true?

[Mike_Cirba]

2.  Your question about the location of the green for the current #8/old #13 intrigues me.  I've looked at Google maps to see what I think is Cobb's Creek running at the edge of the driving range, which makes your question so good.  But I've played w/ some guys at McCall that indicate the creek goes through their course!  Can that be true?

Joe,

The creek splits, with one part going over to McCall's, and the other part running parallel to the driving range.

Man, the more I'm thinking about the "Old Course", the more I'd love to play it.

And yes, it was difficult, no question.   Even the old Philadelphia Inquirer PGA tourney during the 50s yielded very few low scores and some embarrassing ones.

If Bethpage Black is a public course, as difficult as it is, then I think difficulty is certainly NOT a reason not to restore Cobbs.

I almost hesitate to ask this question of Mark (not sure I want to hear the answer), but...what happened to the whole study you mentioned of looking at the possibility of restoration a few years back?

[TEPaul]

Mike:

It's always nice to see you do this kind of research on some of the old city courses and public courses.

I can't imagine that it won't have some effect on what might happen in the future. This kind of thing really can help stir pride that can lead to action in the future---eg the saga of the research=restoration of the township owned Jeffersonville.

Maybe you've already done it and maybe you haven't but some of the old newspaper articles and such leading up to the creation of Cobbs and some other public courses around here certainly are interesting in an historical context.

It seems like some of the apparently "elite" architects and sportsmen in this city were the driving forces to get some good public courses done, mostly centering around Cobbs. From those early articles it seems like they were sort of disappointed the city officials didn't really "get it" at that time.

Also, did you know that apparently the old PPGA (Philadelphia Public Golf Association) was sort of the brainchild of longtime Flynn foreman and then independent architect William Gordon?

Did you also know that Mr Geoffrey Cornish has said that if it wasn't for the insistence of William Gordon he never would've gotten into compiling and writing his tome---The Architects of Golf?

Also, the idea and specter of difficulty of a course in those days is a most interesting one to consider, particularly in how a course was viewed by the movers of that day. Back then there was a feeling that difficulty directly influenced and promoted the quality of the region's players and that was a pretty big deal in some circles back then. It was basically the alternative reason that Pine Valley was designed and built as it was---eg very hard as a form of a training ground for good players in the region.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom Paul,

Yes, I've seen articles that you're describing and I find it very interesting...valiant even, that the monied movers-and-shakers of Philadelphia golf at the time were so concerned about promoting and developing the game among all classes, thus the push for public golf.

It seems Tillinghast was also a very outspoken proponent, even if not directly serving on the feasibility committee.   It can fairly be said that the major players at the major clubs really sort of shamed the city into building Cobbs Creek, by citing how far Philadelphia was falling behind public golf efforts in other major eastern cities.

Call me naive, but wouldn't it be wonderful to see some of that same civic pride and even some private funding exhibited today?  

Perhaps it's not possible for Philadelphia and Philadelphians to do what has been done at places like Bethpage in NY, or East Lake in Atllanta, or Memorial Park in Houston or San Francisco did with Harding Park (although that particular one 's certainly not the model to follow)?   Perhaps there really isn't that type of consolidated leadership amongst the golfing community, or concern with the growth and development of the game for our citizens as there was back in the 1910s.  

I just don't see anything ever happening if we rely on public funding alone, because sadly, the city has larger public concerns that need addressing.   However, if some type of private/public partnership could be forged to create a workable business model that would drive a renovation/restoration, I find it a little silly (again, just me being naive) and preposterous to believe that such a thing would be impossible.

There is plenty of land there.   Just brainstorming out loud, I'd imagine something where the Karakung course could be redesigned into something that would attract golfers, again at lower rates, and the Hugh Wilson designed Cobbs Creek course being totally refurbished (new irrigation, new turf, etc.), and restored as closely as possible to the pre-war course.  

Costs to city golfers should be kept lower, but out of city players would pay significantly higher fees (similar to Bethpage), and perhaps even some type of formal clubs established.

Again...I'm just throwing around ideas, but it seems to me that Hugh Wilson designed a very small handful of things in his too-short life and if we can't make Cobbs Creek into some type of shining example of his legacy and the history of Philadelphia golf, then perhaps we deserve out sometimes too-true reputation as a second-rate city.    

[wsmorrison]

I think there is a real chance that the next mayor will find ways to fix many of the city problems that the present mayor has proven wholly incapable of doing.  There are all sorts of methods to upgrade Cobb's Creek GC, including as you say a mixture of public and private money.  It is possible that the USGA might make a grant (as they did at Glen Mills) timed with the Walker Cup or US Open that will be held in the region over the next 5 years.

"Costs to city golfers should be kept lower, but out of city players would pay significantly higher fees (similar to Bethpage), and perhaps even some type of formal clubs established."

Are you proposing some sort of UK model where there might be some private clubs (made up of public golfers) with some privileges on the public course?  This could generate some additional revenue to the course (a portion of the club's fees goes to the course in favor of some prime tee times or other privileges) and also generate a lot more pride and a sense of connection to the course.  

[Mike_Cirba]

I think there is a real chance that the next mayor will find ways to fix many of the city problems that the present mayor has proven wholly incapable of doing.  There are all sorts of methods to upgrade Cobb's Creek GC, including as you say a mixture of public and private money.  It is possible that the USGA might make a grant (as they did at Glen Mills) timed with the Walker Cup or US Open that will be held in the region over the next 5 years.

"Costs to city golfers should be kept lower, but out of city players would pay significantly higher fees (similar to Bethpage), and perhaps even some type of formal clubs established."

Are you proposing some sort of UK model where there might be some private clubs (made up of public golfers) with some privileges on the public course?  This could generate some additional revenue to the course (a portion of the club's fees goes to the course in favor of some prime tee times or other privileges) and also generate a lot more pride and a sense of connection to the course.  

Wayne,

That's exactly what I'm proposing.

It's one thing to fix it up, but the longer term strategy has to be a sense of ownership among city public golfer's in some way that will help to keep it financially healthy, well-conditioned, and self perpetuating.

[MSusko]

Mike and Wayne,

We proposed to the city a few years ago what you mentioned above.  A full scale restoration to the original layout with expanded tees, new bunkers, clubhouse expansion and renovation and most importantly a state of the art irrigation system.  This would be paid for by a surcharge that would be added to the greens fees.  I think that it worked out to city residents paying a peak fee of $40 and non city residents (which make up over 80% of my play) would pay a peak fee of $65.  We presented this with plans for every step of the process and even had funding in place.  All the city had to do was sign off on it, of course they didn't citing several reasons that to me made no sense.  

Also, to answer Joe's question about the location of today's 8th green.  You can see in the pictures from the 1930's that the creek really didn't come into play of the original 13th hole.  It is just off tee (you can still see evidence of an old bridge behind the present 6th green that was used to get to the tee) but unless you topped it right in front of you there was no need to worry about it.  I don't think we'll ever know why the creek wasn't utilized for this hole.  Hopefully we can turn up some picture from the 20's but all of my efforts have failed to this point.

Mark

[Mike_Cirba]

Mark,

That's really interesting.  

Of course, you'd probably not be surprised to learn that it also took the golf leaders in the area multiple attempts to work with the city back in the 1910's as well, and we should talk more about this when we get together.

Wayne wants to join up with us that day, as well.

Best Regards,
Mike

[wsmorrison]

Mark,

The Library Company of Philadelphia and the Historical Society of Pennsylvania have excellent photography collections including a fair amount of early golf course photographs.  While I was there looking for Flynn material, they might have some helpful archival materials from the 1920s.  Please see if they have anything in their collections that can help you research the earlier iterations of the golf course.

[MSusko]

Wayne,

I will, thank you.

[TEPaul]

Mike:

Are you familiar with the Thompson brothers (Andy and Ray)---two really fine amateur golf champions over the past some decades in this region?

I could be wrong but I seem to recall that Ray Thompson had to do with managing Cobbs and maybe a few of the others in the last decade or so.

I never really talked to him about it specifically but I think it was a pretty daunting task dealing with bunch of small time bureaucrats and the structure that has to do with places like Cobbs.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike:

Are you familiar with the Thompson brothers (Andy and Ray)---two really fine amateur golf champions over the past some decades in this region?

I could be wrong but I seem to recall that Ray Thompson had to do with managing Cobbs and maybe a few of the others in the last decade or so.

I never really talked to him about it specifically but I think it was a pretty daunting task dealing with bunch of small time bureaucrats and the structure that has to do with places like Cobbs.

Tom,

I'm familiar with the names but not personally.   I have little doubt that you're correct about the frustrations of dealing with city bureaucracy...I'm quite sure it's maddening.

From my perspective, that goes with the territory and I'm just trying to explore creative possibilities that would decrease reliance on city funding and perhaps also help to increase education within the Fairmount Park Commission on how some other cities have successfuly moved forward.

[TEPaul]

"From my perspective, that goes with the territory and I'm just trying to explore creative possibilities that would decrease reliance on city funding and perhaps also help to increase education within the Fairmount Park Commission on how some other cities have successfuly moved forward."

Mike:

Personally, I wouldn't think decreasing reliance on city funding---eg trying to take it into some private entity or structure or even some combined city and private structure would be the way to go with a city park course like Cobbs.

I think the idea and solution is more usefully political and not economic. Look, a city the size of Philadelphia carries a huge capital and operating budget and restoring and running something like Cobbs better is something for the city itself to commit to and do longterm. It's the city itself that needs to make the financial committment. Only that way can it really take pride in ownership of the whole thing and perpetuate it.

I'll tell you what, pal, you let me handle this and I'll be back to you in about a week.

I'm gonna propose to City Hall that they let you and me and Wayno loose in some of those drug zones with a few of our old 1 irons. We'll raid some COKE dealer dens and in about a month we'll have confiscated enough shit to sell to the New York City Police Department to pay for the entire restoration of Cobbs and enough for a decent operating budget for the next couple of decades. Up until today you probably thought the NYPD worked for the city didn't you? Come on, you really did think that didn't you? What do you think the NYPD does with all the coke and heroin and stuff they confiscate? Do you think the cops smoke it? Do you think they just burn it? No way in hell. They sell it back to the coke dealers. But they never have enough to sell so we'll just supplement their supply for a slight undercut price.

You just leave it to Old Tom to come up with some really good win/win plans.

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Mike,

If possible, count me in for a meeting at Cobb's as well.

Thanks,

Geoff

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,

If possible, count me in for a meeting at Cobb's as well.

Thanks,

Geoff

Geoffrey,

That's great...I'm sure we'd be happy for you to join us.

How about this fellas...once we get a date/time together, I'll post something here and any interested GCA'ers would be welcome I'm certain..

Tom Paul,

You'd better watch yourself and your creative solutions or you might be getting a call from Huge "Puffy" Wilson looking to restore some other things!  

[Joe Bausch]

I thought some would find it interesting if I took the Google aerial photo of the course now and compare it to what I think is close to the routing from the 30's as described by Mark and Mike.  I know these diagrams sure helped my comparison.

Here is "Cobb's Now", where I've used rectangles to indicate where tees are, and circles for greens.  Remember that holes 1-5 really haven't changed much, hence I cropped that part of the figure.



And here is approximately the routing in the 30's (with the holes numbered properly) on top of the current layout:



I just love the original routing.  

[mike_malone]

 Joe,

   Guys who need to get a life are the backbone of gca.com. Thanks for that.

[Joe Bausch]

Mark, can I assume the City still owns the land where the driving range is located?

Also, just thinking of the way the course was years ago I was wondering which hole would likely be my favorite.  Yeah, the island green par 3 12th sure looks neat, but I think the uphill par 5 11th would be fantastic.

Mayday:  uh.... thanks.  I think.  

[MSusko]

Joe,

Yes the city owns the range.  We manage it as part of our agreement with the park comm.  Also, because of Mike's post I went out today and located the tee for the old 12th hole.  It is very evident in the woods left of the current 14th tee.  A large flat area with the stone steps leading down the hill toward the 6th green.  Looks like it was around 140 yards.  I tried to find the old 13th tee but was unable.  Just a few minutes ago I talked to a guy who caddied here back then and he told me that the old 13th tee was in front of the current 7th tee.  He also told me that he could only remember two guys were able to hit it in two.  He then confirmed that the routing I posted was correct and said that the old 6th hole was his favorite because he had an advantage off of that tee since he could hit the ball "sky high back in the day."  

Mark

[mike_malone]

 Was the tee for #17 ever in a different place ?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I'm available for a meeting anytime before January 30. I suggest we meet with Mark Susko and possibly others at Liberty Golf to get this started before approaching the Fairmount Park Commision.

I suggest that we all review the Papago situation in Phoenix posted here before just to get educated on the process and review the materials referenced in www.savepapagogolf.com. The FPC must first be persuaded that this project is doable before they advertise for a RFP.

[MSusko]

Mike,

Yes, the original tee for the 17th is located just short and to the right of the current 16th green.  It was around 225 yards from there.  Later the current tees were build to be used for the middle and forward tees.  Then the old tee was abandoned because it was considered too difficult.

[mike_malone]

 I would love to play that old #12 par three. I assume it would be downhill. How long?