Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams

[Joe Bausch]

Sorry Wayne, but I'll have to make this a little clearer.  

We don't want to remove the dams up stream, we need catch basins and coffer dams to slow the water down as it approaches the 11th green.  This would also help control the flow down to Cobbs.

At one time we thought about a diversion into the quarry in front of #17 tee.

Much of this run-off starts up at Villanova, from the parking lot.  So we might have to get Joe involved.

Bill,

Who'd thunk it?!  I never dreamed starting at 'Nova 14 years ago and somehow CC, ME, and my school would be mentioned in the same sentence.  

I know somebody in our Civil Engineering Dept that is well connected.  He recently had built a porous asphalt parking lot at the building I work in.

[Marty Bonnar]

There we are:



Photoshop is the Devil's work...

(I could have spent a wee bit more time and made it REALLY believable.)

FBD.

[wsmorrison]

Bill,

I already ordered the high explosives.  We gotta blow something up, so I'm gonna get some extra and we'll blow up Villanova instead.  Nobody will miss it, except Joe.  Speaking of Joe, we better capture him in case he spills the beans on our cunning plan.  You will still get to wear that camouflage outfit.  I better get a hold of Tom before he goes out on the wrong mission.  That's why you're an officer and he was merely an enlisted man  

[Bill Hagel]

Guys

It was a great day yesterday and it was nice to meet all of you.  I was so psyched I had to grab my son and get 9 holes in at McCall later in the afternoon (yes it was cold).  Sorry I could not make the lunch.  Can anyone report out the gist of the discussion?

Great aeriel posted by Geoffry. This pretty much confirms that CC had two island green par 3s (4 and 12). How cool it would have been to play them.

As far as the course to the northwest - if you keep going up Earlington - it looks like the road ends right at Mill Rd. and there is another course there; I believe it was called Woodmere Park.  When I bought a house in the Woodmere Park area of Havertown I asked what was here before the houses (making sure it wasn't a toxic waste dump) - I was told a golf course - well this confirms it.

Thanks

Bill

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Bill,

I didn't even see that course on the aerial until you menioned it!  Thanks for clearing that one up as well.

It was great to have you ride shotgun with me for the CC expedition on Saturday.  I hope that is the first of many meetings.

Here's another aerial for you guys from 1971 after the changes were made:

http://www.pennpilot.psu.edu/photos1960s/delaware_1971/delaware_1971_photos_jpg_800/delaware_070571_ahl_5mm_138.jpg

Gives you a nice mid-point between the original routing and what we see now.  Of particular interest is the cart path crossing on #5 which IS still coming from the other side of the creek.  Also check out the trees bisecting a still visible combined fairway between the current #14 & #15.

There are still two more sets of aerials (1946-1952 and 1956-1961) which should be available through this site but the have not been posted online yet.

[Mike_Cirba]

Geoffrey,

That's a really interesting aerial.   Along with the conjoined 14/15 fairway you mentioned, and the cart path coming from the left of 3 & 4, there are a few other things I though worthy of note;

Most importantly, the corridor for the original 6th (playing to today's 16th green) is still almost all there, with just some overgrowth starting.   This should confirm any remaining doubts as to the authenticity of this wild hole.

It's difficult to tell where the green is on #4...whether on the island, or in today's position.   Perhaps Mark could check with a couple of the "old-timers" crew to see their recollection of the positioning of this green, as well as tee's for both 4 and 5 to the left of the creek??

I'm also curious as to the location of the 12th tee as I'm still not 100% certain I know where it was exactly.  

Some minor bunkering differences/omissions are also noteworthy, such as the fronting bunker on today's 10 being split into 2 bunkers.

p.s. I suspect that the other two aerials (once available online), particularly the oldest one, should prove enlightening in a number of areas.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

I had asked Ron about the feasibility of opening up that old 6th fairway again (eg the hillside above 7 tee).  He did say it would be relatively inexpensive to clear.  
My thoughts are, do you have fairway on the face of the hill down somewhat towards the tee, meaning fairway slopes down the the golfer on the tee, or is it a full carry up to the top of the hill?  

[Joe Bausch]

Just for giggles I thought I would post views of two lost tee boxes from the two par 3s Mark showed us on Saturday.  Here is the view from the hill near the current #15 tee that used to be used for a ~140 yard shot to an island green, the current #6 green.  You can just make out the green through the trees that have overgrown the hill and the two big evergreens planted in front of the green.



And here is the view from the original tee, 200+ yards, for the current par 3 17th, with the green mostly obscured, but you can see the bunkers through the trees:



My thoughts:  both holes are much better as originally intended.  Note:  the current 6th can't be an island green anymore as Mark S said the Army Corps of Engineers filled in part of the creek going around it.  Mark S says a tee across the creek that used to be in play for the 6th might be brought back next year.  That improves the hole considerably from what it is now, but the hole in the original routing is better, IMO.

The 17th is also interesting.  It might have played as long as 220 yards.  The green is angled beautifully to receive tee shots, much better than where the tees are currently located.

[mike_malone]

 The original use of the creek , the side hill for a couple of holes, and the hill for #6 makes for a very challenging and varied course. The original routing is enjoyable. I don't think there is much more to do on the historical search. The game moves to the political arena.

[Mike_Cirba]

Joe,

That looks about right.   Of course, both holes would probably play a bit tougher right now if played from those tees (pre-clearing).  

I was going to ask if you might update your "current/prior" aerial routing based on what we've learned when you get some time.  Even little things like the fact that the current 11th hole tee was right behind the 10th hole green, and the present hole 15 tee was down near the present 14 green.  

It might also be useful to speculate on the tee locations of 3 & 4.

I know this is a bit of work, but might give some great perspective to what would be required overall for a restoration.

Thanks!
Mike  

[Joe Bausch]

Mayday, I think there is still some work to do on the historical search.  Once we get some of the old cards from Mark, we can probably better figure out some parts, in particularly I'm so curious about #4 and #5.  I'm not so certain now about my idea that the 4th had the tees much different than we thought on Saturday.  I think we need higher resolution aerials.  I say this b/c if #5 was really a par 5 originally as Mark said, and it played 480 yards, there is little chance my idea for where the original 4th tee could be right.  If 5 tee was on the other side of the creek and truly 480 yards, the tee would be in the path of what I was thinking for the 4th.

Mike, I'll be working on a re-do of my routing figure soon.

[mike_malone]

 Joe,

   I certainly agree there is more fun research to be done by you research geeks. But, I think we all agree that Cobbs can be recovered and that the political work won't be as fun but more necessary and that we know enough architecturally now to develop a plan of action.

[wsmorrison]

I'm trying to see if a scorecard for Cobb's Creek exists in the RA Kennedy scorecard collection at the USGA.  The museum is closed and the director out for a time.  That collection deals with clubs from the late 1920s through the 1940s.  Perhaps he played CC while playing elsewhere in Philadelphia.

[Mike_Cirba]

Joe,

   I certainly agree there is more fun research to be done by you research geeks. But, I think we all agree that Cobbs can be recovered and that the political work won't be as fun but more necessary and that we know enough architecturally now to develop a plan of action.

Michael,

Agreed, but I think the two efforts can move forward simultaneously.

I think the best way to proceed is to continue the fun, geeky, research stuff on here and do the political and business processes behind the scenes for the time being.

As you know, those wheels are already turning (and hopefully not just "churning"!).  

Joe,

Are you saying that you don't think the 4th and 5th tees were on the left side of the creek as we speculated yesterday?   It sure seems like there was a corridor coming from much closer to the railroad tracks than the existing one for the 4th?

Thanks for the forthcoming update...it should be exciting to see!

[mike_malone]

 We may find ourselves going beyond restoration as we continue to work through this. For instance, if the #5 tee wasn't across the creek then but an analysis of  today's game  dictates that this location is better now, why not consider that? And what about the hill behind #17 up to #18 tee ? Why not consider lengthening #18 to a blind tee shot ?


 

[Joe Bausch]

Mike, if #5 was really 480 yards, then yes I don't think #4 tee could have been on the other side of the creek.  I'm just working w/ Google aerials and estimating distances.  But this is a work in progress... :-)

An actual scorecard from that era would be incredibly useful.

And here is just another reason for needing those yardages:  the 13th hole (the par 5 running partly through the current driving range) sure looks to my eyes to maybe not be the original routing judging from the 1930's aerials we are looking at together w/ old-timers info from Mark.  Mark says he was told the tee for this hole was more or less north of the current tees for #7.  My estimate would have this then being almost 600 yards long.

If the creek was in play lots, as we now think with two island greens, then my suspicion is that the original tee for #13 was also across the creek as my original routing drawing has.  This would be about a 530 yard hole, I think.  And it makes more sense to my eyes as otherwise the original 9th hole would just be too close for comfort while playing the drive.  And that big ole open area for where the Army stuff went just looks so appealing.

[mike_malone]

 Joe,

   Are you speculating that one walked along the creek from #3 to the #4 tee without crossing back over and that #4 tee could have been on that side of the creek ?

[Mike_Cirba]

Agreed that a scorecard is critical and finding one to match the timeframe of the aerial(s) is needed, as well.   For instance, there may have been some tee changes between 1916 and 1939, particularly if flooding took place.  

I think we have to assume that we find a point in time prior to WWII that is as close to the Hugh Wilson original as possible and go with that.

I think opening the door to revisions that we know never existed in the 90+ year history of Cobbs Creek is a very slippery slope.  The intent isn't to make CC some type of "Championship" course, ala Bethpage Black and/or Harding Park, but instead to restore what should be a Philadelphia and National treasure to public golf.  

Besides, personally, I don't believe I could design a better hole than Hugh Wilson.  

[Joe Bausch]

Joe,

   Are you speculating that one walked along the creek from #3 to the #4 tee without crossing back over and that #4 tee could have been on that side of the creek ?

Yes.  Hence, a much shorter walk from the 3rd green.  Then maybe the tee for the 5th was sort of near the current blue tee, but back farther on the hill near the 17th green.  But that aerial photo and our intuition suggests that isn't right.  I do think 5 tee was also probably on the other side of the creek but maybe 480 yards isn't right and perhaps it was more like 425.

[MSusko]

All,

I'll ask around and take a walk out to see if what you're thinking about #4 and #5 are correct.  I talked to a guy Sat. afternoon that has old scorcards, he's going to bring them in this week.  I'll post find findings ASAP.

Also, it was great having you all here this weekend.  It is great that so many of you hold the same passion as I for restoring this landmark of a course.  I hope we can do it again soon.

Mark

[Mike_Cirba]

Here's a wild thought.

Are we missing a hole?   What if the current 5th hole played from the current 4th tee?  

nah...probably not.   Just perplexed at the 4/5 conundrum.  

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Funny you ask that Mike - I was playing around with the aerials and something just doesn't make sense to me.

The clearing to the right (East) of the current #16 fairway up through the trees from the 5th fairway to 16 green.  I don't understand why that fairly wide corridor is there in the 1930's, is partially visible in the 1970's and then completely disappears.  At first I thought it was an access path for maintenance, but then why would they ever let it grow back?  There's also some sort of creek/path running up the left hand side which appears to still be visible.

I don't actually think it was part of the current routing, but it may have been part of the original routing that was discarded before construction.

[Joe Bausch]

All, I think I have a better photo from the Penn Pilot site for the area around #4 and #5.  I've trimmed it and put it here:

http://darwin.chem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/Penn_Pilot_1937_Cobbs_aerial.jpg

I'm studying it now to see if we can better figure out the 4/5 conundrum.  It is nice to see #3 green on that image.

Here is the link to the full version of that aerial from the Penn Pilot web page:

http://www.pennpilot.psu.edu/photos1940s/delaware_1937/delaware_1937_photos_jpg_800/delaware_092037_ahl_49_69.jpg

[David Federman]

As a frequent player of Cobbs Creek and Karakung in the mid to late 60's I am really sorry I was not able to make the tour this past Saturday. I would like to hear about its current conditioning and appearance, etc. from those who were there. I know the routing has been changed since then, but I can hardly remember the order of the holes. Did anyone play any of the holes or was it just a walking tour?

[mike_malone]

 Dave,

  As should be expected the low holes with trees bordering them to hide the sun and hills to impede the air movement are in sorry shape, but some of the greens, such as #15 were awesome. We rode carts around which I got a kick out of since most of us are confirmed walkers.