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Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1600 on: January 22, 2022, 12:18:12 AM »
Love this project as it is about as all encompassing as any single golf course can be. Nature restoration, community center, golf course restoration, economic development via jobs, tour event for tourism, sustainable philanthropy for future. Kudos to all.  A couple questions as I couldn't find it on the site. I'm sure Mike Cirba and his encyclopedic knowledge of this project will chime in soon (great efforts Mike btw to you and all others).
Community Landmark
  • It appears the entire site is called Fairmont Park and Cobbs Creek golf course is part of that?
  • Is the entire site a total of 350 acres including the golf course? Does this include the 15% of reclaimed land from the military, that was taken away in the 1950's?
  • Are you having to apply or is it now recognized as protected Audubon Cooperative Sanctuary?
  • The 40 acres of wetlands proposed to be created, is this brand new to the site? I assume it is part of your flood control plan if so.
Historic Future
  • The city will still own the course I assume, or have they signed a long term lease with the foundation like NLT for example?
  • Billy Casper was running the course, but see Troon is a corporate partner in your foundation. Will Troon run the operation or is that a TBD decision?
  • It says the "This will involve temporarily transforming several holes of Karakung to provide the necessary routing for a challenging and competitive composite course."  Does this mean that the to be constructed 9 hole course will be used in some form during competitions?  There will be a hole or two that gets to that caliber to include? Great if so.
  • Other than the First Tee, what other organizations have committed to have programs? Boys & Girls club perhaps?
Sustainable Philanthropy
  • Within 5 years the goal appears to be fully fund an endowment for scholarships in order to fund the operations/programs. What activities will be done for this or is there a yearly event with corporate partners, active fundraising?  I know the NLT has been creative in a variety of events and fundrasiers, I'm sure the foundation has as well.
  • Hosting a PGA tour event is mentioned and sounds like a goal. Is this realistic or is the event maybe a USGA championship? The economic development offered by a PGA Tour event would be great as you would have the entire benefit of a separate charity set up with revenues from the tournament / pro am etc. going to help the foundation I imagine.
  • Is the $65 million already raised or still some to be done. Big amount, but big benefits.
  • What can GCA members do to support other than send in a donation?
Great project and I see this as part of the momentum to get public golf back to where it needs to be. Similar to NLT, the project for the Jackson Park / South Shore course as part of the Obama center, this needs to be addressed as cities nationwide and kudos to the team for finding the resources to do it. Great work Mike, Joe, others.

"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1601 on: January 22, 2022, 09:21:20 AM »
Before I get to Jeff's questions, I want to thank others who have mentioned Joe Bausch & I as originally spearheading this effort but I'm uncomfortable with singling us out as this was more akin to a relay race with many heroes to this story.  Chris Lange, probably the second best amateur golfer in Philadelphia history next to Jay Sigel who caught the Cobb's bug at the same time as us was able to bring this story to the attention of the prominent families associated with the prestigious private courses in the area and thus provide a funding base, and much, much more from contract negotiations to administrative oversight over the past decade.   Chris Maguire, and the entire philanthropic Maguire Family and Foundation who had to have the patience of saints over these many years and provided the leadership and resources necessary to create the Cobbs Creek Restoration and Community Foundation, and continue to run it as a family non-profit business to this day.   None of this would have happened without their hard work, community spirit, and love for the game of golf and the city of Philadelphia.

However, in my opinion the real unsung champion is historian/teacher/businessman/entrepreneur and GCA-er R. John Burnes, aka rjburnes.   I first met John here on GCA and then in person ten years ago yesterday at Trenton Country Club as I had helped him with some research into that course's origins.   It was clear we had many shared passions and even some work-related connections and in the next two years John single-handedly was able to get a historic monument built in Philadelphia honoring John McDermott, the first American-born US Open Champion who proceeded Francis Ouiment but whose story was largely lost to time before John resurrected and spotlighted it.  During 2013, our Cobb's group got a lot of press including a nice segment on "The Golf Channel" in conjunction with the US Open at Merion and it seemed we were tracking, yet by late in 2014 it seemed we were running in mud as we had very little knowledge or experience with the powers that be in Philadelphia government.

Right before Christmas 2014 John agreed to meet with Joe B. and I for lunch at El Limon in Conshohocken.   We learned that John grew up in Upper Darby and as a kid used to mow the greens at Cobb's.   Further, John's family had a long history with Philadelphia government and through John's family and business connections (including the Maguire family) spent much of the next four years as a one man lobbying and community outreach team, meeting with local citizens groups in the neighborhood of the golf course, as well as more city officials than I can name.   Through it all his dogged determination, described by some in City Hall as a "Force of Nature", John was able to get our message to the right people until we reached critical mass, such that by the time this went to a vote of City Council in June of 2018 we received unanimous approval and the Mayor's signature the same day.

Of course, that original agreement had a set of requirements that both sides had to meet and not satisfied with the interim victory John went to work from a fundraising and continuing community outreach standpoint.   John effectively and essentially worked full-time for free at this effort until such time as he was asked to become an executive within the Cobb's Creek Foundation, which grew to an effective, multi-dimensional organization while he was there.   During 2021, John left to pursue new challenges yet continues to help our efforts wherever and whenever possible.   I'm sure he doesn't want me writing this as he prefers to work behind the scenes...but I'd be remiss not to do so. 


Thank you, John.   This would have never happened without you.


« Last Edit: January 22, 2022, 07:19:32 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1602 on: January 22, 2022, 09:29:21 AM »
What he said.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2022, 01:27:02 AM by Joe Bausch »
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1603 on: January 22, 2022, 04:56:06 PM »
Jeff Schley, thank you very much and please see my responses below in BLUE.

ove this project as it is about as all encompassing as any single golf course can be. Nature restoration, community center, golf course restoration, economic development via jobs, tour event for tourism, sustainable philanthropy for future. Kudos to all.  A couple questions as I couldn't find it on the site. I'm sure Mike Cirba and his encyclopedic knowledge of this project will chime in soon (great efforts Mike btw to you and all others).
Community Landmark
  • It appears the entire site is called Fairmont Park and Cobbs Creek golf course is part of that?  It's a bit confusing, Jeff.   Fairmount Park is the largest park system in the country and encompasses a much larger area than the 350+ acres of the golf course.   Cobb's Creek Park is also larger than just the golf course and was acquired by the city bit by bit in the early 1900s and over time incorporated into the entire Fairmount Park system.
  • Is the entire site a total of 350 acres including the golf course? Does this include the 15% of reclaimed land from the military, that was taken away in the 1950's? Yes, although I keep hearing the number at 350 overall but believe it's somewhere between there and 400 acres.   It's a massive property that has contained two separate 18 hole courses...the original "Olde" course that opened in 1916 and the overflow "Karakung" course of about 5,800 yards that opened in stages between 1927-1939.  Much of the land of the latter will go into a new nine-hole course of Gil/Jim's design, some will go over to wetlands, and some will become a "Cradle"-like short course, while the "Olde" course will have it's original historic routing restored.
  • Are you having to apply or is it now recognized as protected Audubon Cooperative Sanctuary? It will be an application process.
  • The 40 acres of wetlands proposed to be created, is this brand new to the site? I assume it is part of your flood control plan if so.Yes, it will all be brand new to the site.   The organization who does this work completed similar projects in PA at Bedford Springs and Saucon Valley and their approach is to take the waterway back to what it looked like before the hand of man was there building mills and dams and such that slowed the flow and let sediment drop through.
Historic Future
  • The city will still own the course I assume, or have they signed a long term lease with the foundation like NLT for example? The city will always own the course and the Foundation's lease term goes to 70 years
  • Billy Casper was running the course, but see Troon is a corporate partner in your foundation. Will Troon run the operation or is that a TBD decision? I'm not a part of the Foundation but I believe that's still TBD. 
  • It says the "This will involve temporarily transforming several holes of Karakung to provide the necessary routing for a challenging and competitive composite course."  Does this mean that the to be constructed 9 hole course will be used in some form during competitions?  There will be a hole or two that gets to that caliber to include? Great if so. It's interesting, Jeff...back about a decade ago Jim Wagner had PGA Tour Design Services out there and their concerns are more about logistics and where to put corporate tents and move people etc. than necessarily the difficulty of the golf course.   Joe Bausch and I were out there today walking the new routing and four of the holes would be used in the Composite Course is my understanding.   Let's just say the Composite Course is strong...like bull.   We estimate it would tip out at about 7,800 yards and provide enough open space on the "Olde Course" during an event to accommodate the Big Show. 
  • Other than the First Tee, what other organizations have committed to have programs? Boys & Girls club perhaps? I'm not sure but there is a strong commitment and I'm sure the Foundation is talking to whoever can help realize their mission.
Sustainable Philanthropy
  • Within 5 years the goal appears to be fully fund an endowment for scholarships in order to fund the operations/programs. What activities will be done for this or is there a yearly event with corporate partners, active fundraising?  I know the NLT has been creative in a variety of events and fundrasiers, I'm sure the foundation has as well. That one's outside my area of expertise but the current Director of Development is a very accomplished individual. 
  • Hosting a PGA tour event is mentioned and sounds like a goal. Is this realistic or is the event maybe a USGA championship? The economic development offered by a PGA Tour event would be great as you would have the entire benefit of a separate charity set up with revenues from the tournament / pro am etc. going to help the foundation I imagine. The course(s) sits on GREAT landforms and the routing is spectacular.   We are very excited to see it reach not only it's historic greatness but its full potential with the ability of the architects to do some things like tree removal that wasn't possible when the course was originally built due to Park Commission regulations.   We have no doubt it would a wonderful place to have a big event and its proximity to the city and the adjoining rail lines and highway systems (Route 1 runs along the north end of the property) and views of the Philadelphia skyline would be a no brainer logistically.   We have no proof but once you're there it's pretty apparent that Wilson, Crump, et.al. likely discovered the land riding the train from downtown to Merion as it's the same set of tracks (and Cobb's Creek), only south a few miles.
  • Is the $65 million already raised or still some to be done. Big amount, but big benefits. That's the contractual commitment and that's what will be spent, although fundraising will continue to spread the joy, so to speak.
  • What can GCA members do to support other than send in a donation?  Right now probably just enjoy the process of watching the transformation take place although ideas and leads are always welcomed.   Pledges can be made at the Foundation website www.cobbscreek.org
Great project and I see this as part of the momentum to get public golf back to where it needs to be. Similar to NLT, the project for the Jackson Park / South Shore course as part of the Obama center, this needs to be addressed as cities nationwide and kudos to the team for finding the resources to do it. Great work Mike, Joe, others.   Thanks again, Jeff!
« Last Edit: January 22, 2022, 04:59:17 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1604 on: January 22, 2022, 05:38:57 PM »
Is El Limon in every Bausch story?
AKA Mayday

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1605 on: January 22, 2022, 07:12:51 PM »
Jeff et al, I believe that Troon acquired Billy Casper so the issue may be moot.

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1606 on: January 23, 2022, 07:27:02 AM »
Is El Limon in every Bausch story?


It's the Cobb's Creek of restaurants, Mayday.  Undervalued, underrated, gritty but excellent with great value and on the rise.   ;D   Is that chainsaw sharpened yet?


How's that, Joe?
« Last Edit: January 23, 2022, 07:41:24 AM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Mike_Trenham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1607 on: January 23, 2022, 09:34:43 AM »
Is El Limon in every Bausch story?


Bausch is to El Limon as Mayday is to Flynn.
Proud member of a Doak 3.

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1608 on: January 23, 2022, 09:46:51 AM »
Is El Limon in every Bausch story?


Bausch is to El Limon as Mayday is to Flynn.


Understood
AKA Mayday

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1609 on: January 23, 2022, 10:44:33 AM »
Thanks Mike for the detailed responses. I mean this project almost couldn't be more all encompassing for stakeholders, thus complexity in line with that.  Make no little plans, and this certainly fits that bill.
Kudos again to all, while the 18 hole Olde course will be the certerpiece the 9 hole and short course, range, putting, community center etc. will service more people daily probably. A great place to learn the game. Passion sparked in Philly.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1610 on: January 23, 2022, 11:30:44 AM »
Jeff,

Thanks very much but this project has grown way beyond our wildest dreams back when we were young and naively idealistic in late 2007/early 2008.  Back then we just thought, hey...the original brilliant routing is recoverable..let's just cut down the trees and underbrush that had grown up over the previous 50-plus years and put the hole that was on the driving range back in play, restore the six other holes that were changed and voila!.  Of course, that neglected the fact that the 1950s single row irrigation system was shot, that tree growth and invasive species had choked many other holes, that development upstream meant holes along the Creek routinely flooded, that the clubhouse and outbuildings were decrepit and in need of structural repair, and so on and we quickly learned that no one was interested in spending a penny on a half-assed approach.  So, we quickly, as my wife puts it, learned about the challenges of rebuilding a course originally built in 1915 over 100 years later with today's regulatory and environmental dynamics, vast technological changes, and city government requirements, a process that continues to this day.  Thankfully, enough people with broader understandings of technical, philanthropic, and architectural specializations got on board early to help drive the process.


You might get a kick out of this 2008 account of our Quixotic group of "Friends".   


https://www.inquirer.com/philly/gallery/20080427_With_a_little_help_from_a_few_friends.html?outputType=amp
« Last Edit: January 23, 2022, 11:52:30 AM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1611 on: January 25, 2022, 07:16:46 AM »
Some excellent reporting by the city's more urban-targeted newspaper, the Philadelphia Tribune.

"The course will remain affordable, said (Parks Commissioner Katherine) Ott Lovell, although she expects fees to rise slightly. City officials will be involved in setting the fees, she said, and are recommending a tiered fee structure that’s cheapest for residents of surrounding neighborhoods, more expensive for people coming from the region, and priciest for people visiting from other parts of the country.  (State Senator Vincent) Hughes hopes the historically significant course will once again draw tourists from the region, as well as the world.  “[It will] have a dramatic impact on the city of Philadelphia and the region,” he said."

https://www.phillytrib.com/news/local_news/barrier-breaking-cobbs-creek-golf-course-to-reopen-with-65m-restoration/article_9c0daee4-72bd-5676-822b-765bac5a3be5.html?utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=user-share&fbclid=IwAR0zJ3y7oFj13GpHNl8nr1vChcAq86tT1jhF1RhKriOm8HRF0XdDcZEiPZM
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1612 on: February 05, 2022, 02:38:52 PM »
Came across this article today.   Can you imagine this as a "Consolation Prize" back in 1928??!



"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1613 on: February 06, 2022, 02:34:30 PM »
https://youtu.be/d1cvFscSwEM


Worth some time. Nice recognition for Mike and Joe!

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1614 on: February 07, 2022, 05:25:06 AM »
https://youtu.be/d1cvFscSwEM


Worth some time. Nice recognition for Mike and Joe!


Thanks, Jim.   Chris Lange and Jeff Shanahan did a great job!


There's a rumor Joe and I may be on that show in a few weeks.  That one will be more of a geek fest for architectural history afficianados.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2022, 07:25:30 AM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Victor Donnay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1615 on: March 10, 2022, 05:56:05 PM »
A lot of trees have come down as the restoration work starts up at Cobbs Creek which is causing concern among local people.


https://www.inquirer.com/news/cobbs-creek-golf-course-philadelphia-trees-clear-cut-20220228.html


Any info on this? I had expected that trees would be cut but this looks pretty extreme.




Jeff Taylor

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1616 on: March 10, 2022, 07:31:14 PM »
“The rampant spread of invasive species and overgrowth along with creek deterioration and heavy flooding create an unstable environment for any natural landscape to thrive.”
[/size][/color]
[/size]It's an advantage to be the one who gets to define "invasive", "unstable environment", and "thrive".[/color]
[/size]Was the landscape natural when the course was built?[/color]

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1617 on: March 12, 2022, 10:12:07 AM »
Victor/Jeff,

Re-posting this from the other thread here.   I'll try to avoid commentary on the series of articles in various Philly publications that were anything but balanced.   One had the gall to quote me and others from 2013, etc., without making any attempt to contact us so I certainly don't want to amplify their attempts to turn this into a controversy when it already had gone through various city and state approval processes beforehand.

In this particular case there is no way to either A) restore three miles of debris-choked, flood-prone waterways through the property to the original creek-bed to ensure environmental improvements, flood control, and create 40 acres of wetlands and B) restore the original historical routing of the golf course that was lost when the US Army took over 15% of the original course property in the 1950s without tree removal on a significant scale.

If the Cobbs Creek Foundation hadn't stepped in golf on the site would have disappeared and the wonderful 106 year-old historic treasure would have been forever lost.   The entire 393.2 acres of property would have gone over to "open space" which sounds great in theory to some but let me add that it's been "unmaintained, un-managed, overgrown, and crime-ridden" open space since October 2020 when the last management company left and it's a site for litter dumping on a mass scale, large scale drinking parties with hundreds of empties on the course(s), vandalism,  drug deals, dead bodies, and other rampant crime as well as large, compromised trees that are falling in piece and in whole, and sewers overflowing into the creeks during heavy rains.   I know the article makes the place sound like a wooded Disney land full of joyful little creatures frolicking throughout but it's hardly reality.

The net environmental impact on the property from the project is very positive and I hope the powers that be realize that the groups who are opposed would oppose any development, for any reason.   Enough...too much probably, said.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1618 on: March 12, 2022, 05:35:07 PM »
Three of the original contributors to this thread are in this short video showing the once and future par five 13th hole yesterday, one behind the camera.


The hole was lost in 1953 during the Cold War for an anti-aircraft battery, leading to the re-routing of the golf course at that time that negatively affected six holes.


Everything old is new again.




https://drive.google.com/file/d/18KFumxNd9sJcu_QpojvNoIMQB7eU6mWZ/view?usp=drivesdk
« Last Edit: March 12, 2022, 05:36:38 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1619 on: March 18, 2022, 10:44:56 AM »
Another panoramic view of Cobb's Creek being prepared for restoration filmed and narrated by Joe Bausch.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1AonU6aefHy0iHocBfwkqrdwB8xgPZ_V9/view
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Jeff Kallberg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1620 on: March 19, 2022, 08:10:28 PM »
Great videos.  The new Cobbs (my old stomping grounds) is going to benefit from terrific vistas, to say nothing of the enhanced possibilities for the dramatic terrain to figure centrally into the playing experience.

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1621 on: April 21, 2022, 04:19:51 PM »
Joe and I recently did a podcast with Connor T. Lewis of "TalkinGolf" and The Society of Golf Historians that was released today and we're pretty proud of it.   Worth a listen for interested parties, thanks!

https://talkingolf.fireside.fm/81?fbclid=IwAR3EoCGaJ9DK2OmEvzPI_qK_hoDAhV6YGm5-QquwePy5be54TCogdCn7o3Y
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Morgan Clawson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1622 on: April 21, 2022, 10:56:50 PM »
You guys did a great job.
Solid interview by Connor.
Looking forward to playing it in the future.

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1623 on: April 23, 2022, 04:04:35 PM »
You guys did a great job.
Solid interview by Connor.
Looking forward to playing it in the future.


Thank you, Morgan.  It was an enjoyable interview, really just a conversation.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cobb's Creek Collaborators - Restoration Dreams
« Reply #1624 on: April 26, 2022, 11:00:42 AM »
Ron Whitten of Golf Digest tells the story of the Cobbs Creek Restoration Project in this month's Feature Story.

Nice shout out to GolfClubAtlas, as well.  :)

https://reader.golfdigest.com/2022/04/08/the-friends-of-cobbs-creek/content.html
« Last Edit: February 02, 2023, 04:07:41 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/