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Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
A design for the times?
« on: October 28, 2007, 11:26:24 AM »
Still thinking of the evolution comments I hinted at in the Geoff busy thread.  I got to thinking, is there such a thing as a "design for the times" in golf architecture as opposed to "a design for all time?"

We could argue that Bendelow's rudimentary courses were just what golf in America needed, despite being, well .....rudimentary.

Tillie's depression era site visits suggest that this concept might be applicable, even though designing for greatness was "right" just a few years earlier.

The maintenance friendly designs or Robert Bruce Harris when the golf biz wasn't so profitable may suggest the same.

Todays new, longer courses might be appropriate, as would the more visually spectacular courses of recent years catering to the "TV generation."  (As an aside, what does the net do for our ongoing need for "instant gratification" and how will that affect design?)

Certainly, as water resources become scarce, minimum turf areas, perhaps smaller greens, and different grasses will all come into play, starting with those 90 acre turf limits in AZ and other desert places.  Perhaps wall to wall buffalo grass to save water, at the expense of visual definition will be in vogue.

Of course, a few designs will last for all time as great, but do most designs have enough quality to withstand changing conditions of regulation, the human mind and expectations, and technological developments?  

Even if a design is near perfect for its time and purpose on opening day, is it a matter of luck more than the gca's vision, that it stands up to sand wedges, bigger irrigation systems, carts, conversion to a public course, and more?

Put another way, is change always a bad thing on a golf course?

Inquiring minds want to know!

« Last Edit: October 28, 2007, 11:27:02 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:A design for the times?
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2007, 11:48:26 AM »
Jeff:

No, change is not always a bad thing on golf courses.  We both know there are lots of crap golf courses that should be changed -- ours excepted, of course.

One of the ways I came to minimalism was looking for a model that would stand up in leaner times.  My parents were both born in 1918, so I heard a lot of stories growing up about the Depression, and I always wonder if trouble is not around the corner.  Combine that with living in Scotland for a year when green fees at all the best courses were 5-10 pounds, and I had a model for designing courses that would stand up to whatever you throw at them.

Don't know about your projections, though.  Ben Crenshaw told me 25 years ago he thought we should build big greens and we could always reduce their size later if times got tough -- maybe that's a Texas thing.  He had a bad experience with buffalograss, too!  Personally I think buffalo would be fine, except it's only going to stand up to 50 rounds a day and no carts, which doesn't sound like a bright future to me.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A design for the times?
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2007, 11:55:40 AM »
Tom,

I said Buffalo grass because I wasn't sure I could spell "paspalum" correctly!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A design for the times?
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2007, 05:25:29 PM »
Jeff...paspalum is correct....unless you want to accept spell checks choices of 'psalm' or 'Persepolis'. ;).


« Last Edit: October 29, 2007, 11:03:26 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Peter Pallotta

Re:A design for the times?
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2007, 10:23:17 PM »
Jeff
just some questions (for anyone who's interested) that your post brought to mind. I think that in arts like film and music, it's the viewers and listeners who have changed as much as the art itself. That is, it seems to me that viewers are now able to take in and process much more 'visual information' than they did years ago; and that today's listeners are able to hear and appreciate much more harmonic 'complexity/nuance' than listeners past. I don't know how that happens. (Apparently some scientists believe that the Red Sea is called that because it looked red to those people long ago who named it; something about the development our of visual acuity/discernment).

Do you think the same applies to the appreciation of golf course architecture? Is the "tv generation" a step forward or a step back? Are golfers able to take in and process greater "sophistication" in golf course architecture? If so, WHAT do you think it is that they're now able to better appreciate, and HOW is this sophistication manifested?

Peter    
« Last Edit: October 28, 2007, 10:29:36 PM by Peter Pallotta »

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A design for the times?
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2007, 11:24:49 PM »
Peter, I don't think I can buy into that aspect; that people's senses or ability to process more complexity or detail, or any sensory stimulus has changed/evolved to a higher acuity.

In arts, I think the detail and brilliance of various techniques many of the old masters employed were indicative of  every measure as much and perhaps higher than today's artists.  Certainly, not lesser.  And, I think they actually listened better as well, particularly to speech and then processed complex ideas and wrote about them to posterity.  

Only the technology has changed, perhaps to the more complex, not necessarily the consumers.  In fact, frenetic technology doesn't appear to me to be making us more acute in our perceptions, but rather dulling our senses.  

GCA at its highert levels in the GA was just as full of practioners who paid attention to detail, knew many techiques that got drainage to work in surface and underground, and had complexity of strategic design.  

Whether the population of golfers as a whole completely perceived the muances and complexities was as it is today.  Some folks got it, some did not, in about the same percentages.

BTW, the TV generation's field of vision may be seriously skewed in terms of effect on perceptions of GCA.  The screen bightens and blends color (thus the gravitation to bright greeness of FWs or startling whiteness of Bs) narrows (thus acceptance of narrower playing corridors) and flattens, (thus the possible popular desire for flatter greens).  The previous GA generations may have actually had greater perception in width, and contouring, and preferred to play their game in a more natural world of panoramic, natural earth tones and undulation.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A design for the times?
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2007, 09:39:07 AM »
There's an aspect that's a catch 22. And that is the sense and sensibilities of the wealthy members of courses which are now considered great. The example I'm fixated is the big left side bunker on the 1st at CPC, well short of the green. When I was fortunate to witness it, it was in it's fully evolved glory. Nasty does not do justice in describing it. Not ugly, just clearly an obviously avoidable bunker. As I undestand it, that bunker (as well as others) have been prettified. Altering the natural evolution because of aesthetic sensibilities. What a pity.

The other thought that came to mind, if global warming is melting the ice caps, how does one conclude there will be a shortage of water in the future?

See; "Global Warming Delusions"

By DANIEL B. BOTKIN

Wall Street Journal

October 17, 2007; Page A19
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A design for the times?
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2007, 10:12:58 AM »
One aspect of modern enternainment/information technology that I don't hear a lot of folks talking about is the fact that all of that "connected" time results in people spending a LOT more time indoors than they used to. For many golfers, the hours that they spend on a golf course may make up the vast majority of the time that they actually spend outside in a given week (driving a car does NOT count as outdoor time). "Nature," as represented by the highly artificial environment of most golf courses, is vastly narrowed in scope. A lack of actual connection to a nature unfettered by man might both weaken a person's ability to appreciate complexity or subtlety in what they perceive as well as make them more sensitive to the obvious, since that's all they're capable of apprehending. A golf course designed to appeal to this golfer can provide a satisfyingly artificial "nature" experience, with an opportunity for an equally satisfying, unsubtle golfing challenge. Everybody's happy, except those who might want more, a group that might be considered, at this point in time, to be the minority.

This is, of course, all conjecture on my part.
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A design for the times?
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2007, 11:44:41 AM »
Peter,

I don't know if the TV generation is a step forward or back, it just "is" for reasons of, well...because they invented the TV!  I tend to agree with RJ in the fact that we tend to simplify rather than make more complex. I don't think basic human nature changes, but I do think we get conditioned by our surroundings.  And, in the information age, when we know the weather three days in advance, I tend to think that accelerates a trend away from blindness or other "unknown" in golf, since we are accustomed to "knowing."

But, we are all engaged in pop phycology here and nothing is universally up or downhill. For example, I have read that the kids playing video games actually make better pilots (when they grow up) since those games teach that kind of motor control.

I do agree with Kirk that in general, we spend far too much time indoors these days, mostly because of the 40 news channels reporting a kidnapping somewhere, and worried mothers somehow thinking it happens every day in their neighborhood, so they keep their kids inside.  In reality, their kids being kidnapped is statistically as probable as being hit by lightning, but the TV generation and that information overload has affected our perceptions.  

The kids probably have 100X times chance of dying early from obesity.  I really do think golf could be sold as a family walk in the park to increase play.  (i.e. supervised outdoor activity)

Now, how that affects golf design, I am not sure. I do know that I use that basic premise to focus as much on aesthetics as any subtle nuance of design that will be appreciated by only 0.0001% of golfers, as Kirk suggests.  Other gca's may disagree, of course.  
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A design for the times?
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2007, 11:47:18 AM »
Adam,

As to water issues, there is real variability as to availability around the country and world. In some third world countries, the supply problem is governmental in nature - they haven't built treatment systems and supply lines.  And yet, that wouldn't stop an Al Gore type from suggesting national control of the US water system by the Feds, when our problems are unrelated to both the third world and mostly, each other.

The solutions to whatever water problems are out there lie in responsible local control.  Just my opinion, of course.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Peter Pallotta

Re:A design for the times?
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2007, 04:14:57 PM »
Thanks, gents.

I actually had a similar thought to RJ's, but that was on another thread and in a different context, i.e. I too think we can confuse 'the history of' with 'the progression of', and assume that in music and painting etc, more 'rudimentary' styles were necessarily a product of more rudimentary talent or understanding. But here I was thinking in terms of films, e.g. movies sure seem to 'move faster' (visually, more edits etc) than they did in the silent days; and some jazz music that 50 years ago sounded very 'harmonically' jarring to the average listener and even some musicians today sounds completely natural and easy to just about everyone; maybe it's just a broadening of horizons.  But all that said, I agree that our senses (and, like Kirk says, our appreciation of the natural) is being dulled; it's like we have to work very hard to try to slow down enough to smell the roses....and maybe to see subtlety in design. But I guess what we CAN do and what we SHOULD do are two different things, and a matter of personal choice  

Peter

Mark_F

Re:A design for the times?
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2007, 06:21:59 PM »
I think that in arts like film and music, it's the viewers and listeners who have changed as much as the art itself.

Peter,

There is an interesting opinion on this from William Goldman, the Academy Award winning screenwriter, in his great book, "Which Lie Did I Tell."

Goldman blames much of the style of shooting and editing movies today on MTV, and particularly Elton John - he's fat and ugly, so what the hell else are you going to do with him but quickly cut between his hands, feet, face, dancers etc.

To me, there is a strange disconnect between today's TV generation and golf courses - at a time when we have shorter attention spans than ever before, and are increasingly time poor, why are golf courses longer and longer?

Different movements in art evolve because an artist tries something new, and if they are in tune with the zeitgeist, their style/interpretation/movement becomes the dominant one.

Oh for West Sussex and Swinley Forest to be the dominant movements in golf architecture.

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