[Bill Brightly]

I don't pretend to be fully acquainted with all of your work. I know you've built some great Redans. Have you built any Edens? If not, why not?

Is it that an architect would feel too prescribed to build bunkers in an exact location and style?

Seems to me that the green requires a very noticeable,  back to front tilt without a lot else going on. Is that "too boring" to design?

Lastly, I have to believe you are building one at Old Macdonald, right?

[Mike_Cirba]

That's a great question, Bill.

There sure are some real bad ones.

The one Jerry Pate built at Shadow Isle is pretty good, the one at Fisher's might be the best, if not really totally authentic in concept, and Steve Smyers built a terrific one at Blue Heron Pines East, which is slated for the dustbin of history unfortunately.

[JESII]

Could those of you with pictures, drawings or any other means of showing please post them...what does "The Eden" look like?

From the tee...close up of the green...different perspectives of the hole...anything would be very much appreciated because this is a hole I'm interested in learning about but have never been to the original so I don't have a great idea what we're talking about.

Thanks very much.

[David Stamm]

Steve Smyers built a terrific one at Blue Heron Pines East, which is slated for the dustbin of history unfortunately.

Mike, is that for sure? Isn't this the course that hosted the Pub Links a few years back? I heard some good stuff about that course.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike, is that for sure? Isn't this the course that hosted the Pub Links a few years back? I heard some good stuff about that course.

One in the same David.   The original owner sold it to a homebuilder who has plans to possibly keep nine holes, but I'm certain it'll be butchered in the process.

[David Stamm]

Mike, is that for sure? Isn't this the course that hosted the Pub Links a few years back? I heard some good stuff about that course.

 

One in the same David.   The original owner sold it to a homebuilder who has plans to possibly keep nine holes, but I'm certain it'll be butchered in the process.

[Bill Brightly]

JES,

I dont have any pictures here, I have tons on my work computer...But I suggest you get Rich Goodale's book on the Old Course, so many beautiful pictures.

But I'll try to desrcibe it verbally as someone who has never actually seen it (YET!) and others can correct me if I am wrong: First, the setting behind the green is the River Eden, and what a setting it is.

When you look at the hole to plan your shot, your eye is immediately drawn to the Strath bunker, a pot bunker in the front/right of green with fairway to the edges, clearly looking to collect any mishit balls.

The 10' deep Hill bunker is the left of the green, you DEFINITELY dont want to be in there. (Bobby Jones walked off the course here!)

The Shelly bunker (or Cockleshell) is short and right of the green. It's big,with a high lip, but not nearly as menacing as the others, so a bail out right is a nice safe option.

But really, you need to forget all of that and just hit a really good iron.

The green tilts severly back to front, so it will receive your shot quite well. But when you get on the green, you are going to have to deal with that steep slope when your try to putt! Better hope to keep the ball straight under the hole.

And thrown in a one or two or three club wind, and you have one hell of a simple yet great par three hole.

   

[Tom_Doak]

JES:

The essence of the Eden hole is as follows:

1.  NASTY bunker front right-center (visualize the DA)
2.  pretty good opening left-center
3.  nasty bunker on the left flank
4.  strong back-to-front tilt to the green along with a bit of left-to-right tilt

What makes it great is that as long as you're short and straight, you've still got an angle to get close to the hole when it's tucked behind the nasty bunker, but you have to flirt with the trouble.  If you bail out long, there's no way to stop the ball near the hole in two; and if you double-cross the safe play to the left, you're also punished.

Bill B:  Why are there not more good examples of the hole?  Because architects don't have the nerve to build bunkers that nasty or to put so much slope into the green that you have no chance of getting up and down from a shot played safely past the bunkers; and because American greens are generally soft so you can fly it to the hole.  Nobody ever flies it at the hole at the Eden ... if you get it close, it's by playing a bit left of the hole close to the bunker, landing pin-high, and having the slope of the green stop it and feed it back to the hole.

We built a decent version of the hole at Beechtree (#13).  David Kidd's 12th hole at Bandon Dunes is sort of a mirror-image version of the hole, and it's firm, but the mirror-image is not as demanding, because a short-right miss is okay.  

We will have a real version of the hole at Old Macdonald -- unfortunately, though, the perfect setting for it makes it the second hole, and if we build it as severe as I'd like to it may make for a slow start to the round!  [On the positive side, this will allow the group in front to get out of the way for the blind tee shot on the "Sahara" third hole.]

[Bill Brightly]

Thanks, Tom! I can't wait to see it. I am actually delaying my Bandon/Pacific Dunes trip until Old Macdonald is ready!

Who cares if you have them backed up a bit on the second hole? I can only imagine the view players will have to "deal with" while the foursome in front tries to finish the hole...

It just seems to me that Raynor and Banks "gave up" on the Eden yet continued to build Redan, Biarritz and Short holes that were very true to what Macdonald taught them. Banks, in particular, seemed to not care about the pot bunker in front, or the Hill bunker on the left, but rather, just wrapped a bunker around the entire green, leaving a run up option.

(I think Raynor's at Yale is very good.)

[Bill_McBride]

Excuse the OT interjection, but I did want to say that Hill Bunker on the left of #11 green is 10X more daunting when playing #7 Reverse Old Course!  In that routing you drive from the 13th tee and play in reverse to the High Hole green, over Hill Bunker and directly at that wild slope which is now steeply left to right rather than back to front!

Maybe that's why they don't play the Reverse much any more.  It was very tough when we played it in March, right into the teeth of a three-club wind.  

This has nothing to do with the Eden green, and I agree most of the MacDonald Edens have nothing to do with the Old Course Eden, or at least very little.

[George Pazin]

I don't have much experience with Edens, not even the original,  but the Eden at Fox Chapel Golf Club is pretty damn good. If you stand in back of the green, you almost can't believe the slope of the green. And the bunkering is equally bold.

[Doug Wright]

The description below is from George Bahto's excellent 1999 Feature Interview on this site. If you haven't read it, you should--it discusses all of the "template" holes in some depth.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/interviewbahto.html

Next longest would be the 'Eden' hole, fashioned after the 11th at St. Andrews (A.K.A. High Hole-In), whose severely sloping back-to- front putting surface remains one of the most fearsome in golf. Original Macdonald/Raynor/Banks versions usually present teardrop shaped greens, falling in a yardage range between 160 to 175 yards. Aesthetically, their Eden holes have some of the most picturesque greenside bunkering on the course. Pinched in front by a representation of 'Strath's' pot bunker on the right and 'Hill' bunker on the left, Macdonald always installed an 'Eden' bunker behind the green representing the shoreline of the Eden River behind St. Andrews' 11th green. Strath's bunker, of course, is named for the great Davie Strath and his many unsuccessful bouts with this pit. Greenside left we find Hill bunker, so called because its cape creates a downhill slope in the putting surface. Most renditions include a 'Shelley' (or 'Cockleshell') bunker short right of the green. There are so many fine Eden holes that its difficult to identify the best one. However, there is a strong consensus that the 11th at Fishers Island, framed by Long Island Sound in the background, may be as good as it gets. Macdonald felt there should be an intimidating hazard fronting the Eden hole because at the turn of the century golfers sometimes played short of the hole (even using putters) and chipped on to avoid disaster. In addition, a topped ball was not punished. At the National Golf Links, Macdonald placed the 13th Eden green on the far side of a stretch of water to combat this.

[Marty Bonnar]

JES:

The essence of the Eden hole is as follows:

1.  NASTY bunker front right-center (visualize the DA)
2.  pretty good opening left-center
3.  nasty bunker on the left flank
4.  strong back-to-front tilt to the green along with a bit of left-to-right tilt

Ehm,
what about that little problematical thingamajig - 5. Over the back? Pretty 'essence-iential', I'd say.
Going long is at least/most as(?) bad as being short/left/bunkered.

FBD.

[Phil_the_Author]

Would you consider the 11th at Bethpage Black to be a good example of an Eden?

It has:
 
1.  NASTY bunker front right-center
2.  A larger than narrow but not big opening left-center
3.  A monstrously large and nasty bunker on the left flank
4.  A 6 foot-plus back-to-front tilt to the green with a very slight left-to-right tilt

Why or why not?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill McBride,

The "Eden" at Garden City Golf Club is pretty good, maybe one of the best that I"ve played.

Tom Doak,

In addition to your bullet points, don't you think an impediment to creating the "Eden" hole is the size of the green necessary to make the hole replicate the original ?

Et. al.,

I believe that CBM intended to reproduce the approaches on the 7th and the 11th at TOC with his creation of # 13 at NGLA.

The footpad behind and left of # 12 green is man made and a perfect launch point to replicate the approach on # 7.

The angles of attack match as does the configuration of the bunkering from that angle.

If that was his intent, he outdid himself by creating a classic twofer for all times.

[Tom_Doak]

Phil:

Isn't the eleventh a long par 4?

Patrick:

Yes, I would agree that the size of the green is important, to give a variety of hole locations.  I spoke of the hole as if the only hole location is just over the bunker, but it's also an intimidating shot with the hole to the left.

I have never been in St. Andrews for an Open Championship -- for anyone who has, where do they put the hole on the Eden for four days of the championship?

P.S.  I knew I had done another version of the Eden recently, but I couldn't remember where in my original post.  It's the tenth hole at The Rawls Course.  The green does not have as much tilt as the real thing, though.

[Sean_A]

I have never been in St. Andrews for an Open Championship -- for anyone who has, where do they put the hole on the Eden for four days of the championship?

Tom

I thought the position of the hole used far more today than in the old days is straight back from the Strath bunker near the back of the green on wee plateau.  Otherwise, I think the other three days are right around the Strath bunker more or less where  it has traditionally been located.

Ciao

[Kalen Braley]

Tom,

What kind of slope will exist on the Eden hole at Old Mac?  Will it be close to the original eden, which while I've only seen in pictures and played on my xbox 360 TW game, is very severe.  

[Tom_Doak]

Sean:

That "wee plateau" is where the hole was when I played the reverse Old Course at the end of March.  I didn't remember it ever being there when I caddied years ago, but they probably save it for special occasions.

Kalen:

I can't tell you how much slope we will have in our green because that's the kind of decision we make out in the field, taking everything into consideration ... such as the prevailing summer wind (north) will be blowing from over the back of the green, so we'd better be careful!  Ask me again at the end of February and I'll have an answer.

[Bill Brightly]

"I can't tell you how much slope we will have in our green because that's the kind of decision we make out in the field..."

Can we read that: "As much as we can get away with"

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

Would you say that modern green speeds have eliminated many of the back hole locations on a number of Edens ?

The back of # 13 at NGLA and GCGC become dicey as green speeds increase

[wsmorrison]

11 at Bethpage Black is a 444 yard par 4 with a green complex that has nothing at all in common with the 11th (High Hole inward) at The Old Course.  I don't think there's anything close to an Eden concept green at Bethpage, certainly not the par 3s unless you really stretch the concept with the 3rd hole.

[George Pazin]

P.S.  I knew I had done another version of the Eden recently, but I couldn't remember where in my original post.  It's the tenth hole at The Rawls Course.  The green does not have as much tilt as the real thing, though.

Wow, I thought that was one of the more tilted greens I've seen.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom & Wayne,

Yes, it is a long par-4 (11 on the Black)..

My question was really poorly phrased as I have never personally seen an Eden hole and was asking if the green complex at 11 is the type that one would see on a true Eden hole.

Wayne is correct, there isn't an Eden on the Black...

[wsmorrison]

Phil,

You won't find anything in the US that comes close to the original.  I hope you get to make the pilgrimage to TOC sometime.  

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