[Doug Ralston]

Jeff & Garland;

Glad to hear that we all agree! *cringe*

Doug

[Patrick_Mucci]

I was surprised to read Tom Doak's assessment on this issue, because he is an advocate of Alister's work and he was an employee of Pete.

What I find amazing is that the farther the hole drops the more predictable the result.

On what basis do you make this claim ?

Nothing could be further from the truth.

A deviation of one (1) degree produces greater deflection from the target as the distance to the target increases.[/color]

I don't think the people stating their opinions to the contrary realize this.

Probably because it's not true.[/color]

The one variable that changes this is the wind as Bob just brought up (for the first time as far as I have noticed).

Good players deal with the wind on 300 yard carries.

What good players ?  PGA TOUR PROS ?

Golf isn't confined to one one hundreth of one percent of the golfing world[/color]

Is that that much different than the added carry time for a drop shot hole ?

YES[/color]

I come down on the side of how does the hole affect the walk?

The longer the drop, the steeper the walk[/color]

In conclusion, I don't see any limit to the amount of drop for a shot on a great hole. If the hole fits, call it great!  

Could you name five (5) GREAT holes where the drop is 100 feet or more ?

50 feet or more ?[/color]

[Garland Bayley]

Patrick,

You misunderstood. You answered about direction variation while I was discussing distance variation. The simple matter is after the drop achieves a certain level air friction will stop(or nearly stop) forward movement of the ball and it will be mostly dropping. Club selection and how hard to hit it is a lot easier for such shot than for those that are both travelling outward and downward.

I know you can't hit it 300 yards. Tom Paul tells me you can't even get it out of your shadow anymore without the help of a nurse. However there are lots of people that can carry it 300 yards and they are not just the tour pros. 35 years ago I could hit it with 300 yards of carry. Doesn't matter though. Those that hit it shorter will be playing forward tees on these drop shot par 3s and the analogy applies to how far they hit it with their driver.

Finally, it is not a reasonable question to ask to name 5 great holes with a 100 ft drop, because there are so few holes with a 100 ft. drop. In my opinion Chambers Bay #9 with a 100 ft. drop is a great hole. Clearly in others minds it is not. You however are in no position to judge it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

You misunderstood.
You answered about direction variation while I was discussing distance variation.

The simple matter is after the drop achieves a certain level air friction will stop(or nearly stop) forward movement of the ball and it will be mostly dropping.

That level isn't at 33 yards.[/color]

Club selection and how hard to hit it is a lot easier for such shot than for those that are both travelling outward and downward.

At 33 yards, the ball is still traveling outward and downward[/color]

I know you can't hit it 300 yards. Tom Paul tells me you can't even get it out of your shadow anymore without the help of a nurse.

Actually, I've been hitting my driver farther than ever.
But, I'm not carrying the ball 300 yards.
As to my nurse, she's rather stunning.[/color]

However there are lots of people that can carry it 300 yards and they are not just the tour pros.

No, there aren't lots of people that can carry it 300 yards.
But, there are more people that can carry it 300 yards today, versus 10, 20 and 30 years ago.[/color]

35 years ago I could hit it with 300 yards of carry.


I played with Weiskopf and other PGA Tour Pros 35 years ago and none of them could carry it 300 yards.

How come I never heard of you or saw you inside of the ropes ?[/color]

Doesn't matter though.
Those that hit it shorter will be playing forward tees on these drop shot par 3s and the analogy applies to how far they hit it with their driver.  

You're saying that someone who carries it 280, 260, 240 or 200 will be playing the forward tees ?  I don't buy it.[/color]

Finally, it is not a reasonable question to ask to name 5 great holes with a 100 ft drop, because there are so few holes with a 100 ft. drop.

Of course it's a reasonable question.
Out of thousands upon thousands of holes you can only name one hole with a drop of 100 feet that you consider great.
That would seem to end the debate.
Maybe there's a reason that there are so few drop shot holes with 100 foot drops.  Maybe that's a BAD hole.[/color]

In my opinion Chambers Bay #9 with a 100 ft. drop is a great hole. Clearly in others minds it is not.

You however are in no position to judge it.

I don't need to.
I can't judge the 9th at Chambers Bay because I've never played it, I'll let others who have played it offer a counter opinion.

The fact remains, that in all of golf, you can only name one hole with a drop of 100 feet, which you allege is great.[/color]

[Dan Kelly]

I still want to know what's wrong with guesswork.

This is the group that (by and large) loves blind shots ... that thrills to the anticipation of seeing how a blind shot turned out!

Why aren't you equally thrilled to *watch* the ball fall to Earth, thou knowest not where?

I'm bemused.

[Garland Bayley]

Dan,

John Kirk's theory says enjoyment comes from waiting for the result. Many here subscribe to it. Seems to me the drop shot is a perfect application. I strongly agree with you.

[Garland Bayley]

I played with Weiskopf and other PGA Tour Pros 35 years ago and none of them could carry it 300 yards.

How come I never heard of you or saw you inside of the ropes ?

Patrick,

You don't seem to understand the discussion, so I'll drop it.

The above quote is an indication of how far you are out of it. I.e., Why don't you see the guys from the long drive competitions inside the ropes?

[Doug Siebert]

Garland,

I think the drop shot par 3 is the antithesis of the Kirk theory.  Yes, the ball is up in the air longer, but you really have no clue about anything other than direction while the ball is in the air.  It is pretty hard to watch the ball on its way down as it accelerates at 9.8 m/s^2.

I've never been able to track falling objects well, so once my ball starts to descend I'm just looking in the area I expect it to land.  That's 1000x less exciting than watching a ball rollicking around on some nice linksland dunes in front of the green wondering if it'll make it around the pot bunker and find that hidden pin just like you visualized the shot.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I played with Weiskopf and other PGA Tour Pros 35 years ago and none of them could carry it 300 yards.

How come I never heard of you or saw you inside of the ropes ?

Patrick,

You don't seem to understand the discussion, so I'll drop it.

The above quote is an indication of how far you are out of it. I.e.,

Why don't you see the guys from the long drive competitions inside the ropes?

But, I've heard of the Long Drive guys.

I used to play with Evan "Big Cat" Williams, one of the first of the Long Drive guys.  

But, I never heard of you.

And, if, 35 years ago,  you could carry the ball 325 yards, as you claim, the entire golf world would have heard of you.

I guess that shows how far out of touch I am.
[/color]

[Matt_Cohn]

Isn't it proportional to the length of the shot?

[Doug Ralston]

It just doesn't seem that much to brag about. I can carry further than that. Hell, I have many times carried balls 7000+ yards and they NEVER hit the ground .............  

Doug

PS: #13 at Eagle Ridge IS a great hole. It is absurd to try to define it otherwise. There are many great holes there. Admittedly, not everyone will agree. But to paraphrase a famous quotation "I cannot define a great hole, but I know one when I see it"  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Isn't it proportional to the length of the shot?

Matt,

I thought about that, but, I don't think it is, I just think it makes the shot harder, with greater dispersal patterns, which, depending upon the surrounds can have disastrous effects.

The 14th at PV comes to mind.

It's a wonderful little hole that's be lengthened to monstrous proportions.

And, it's got water front, left and back with woods and little streams right.

While it's not a windy site, the introduction of wind takes the hole, from the back tees, over the top.

[John Kirk]

My main reason for not liking extreme elevation drop shot holes is the affect on walkability.  For me, holes like #7 at Stone Eagle and #9 at Chambers Bay are much more a problem in terms of an awkward walk.  Shotwise, these holes don't seem to have a significant randomness of result.  Once you play it a couple of times, you know how much club to hit, and unless the wind is really blowing, they play about the same as flat holes.  So I don't buy the "goofy because you can't judge what you're doing" argument.

I'm with the "walking is an essential component" camp, but that does not mean handicapped people should be denied all the other pleasures of the game.

[JeffTodd]

Isn't it proportional to the length of the shot?

Matt,

I thought about that, but, I don't think it is, I just think it makes the shot harder, with greater dispersal patterns, which, depending upon the surrounds can have disastrous effects.

The 14th at PV comes to mind.

It's a wonderful little hole that's be lengthened to monstrous proportions.

And, it's got water front, left and back with woods and little streams right.

While it's not a windy site, the introduction of wind takes the hole, from the back tees, over the top.

I've found that if there is any wind to be found on a day at PV, you'll find it on the 14th tee, without fail. It does make the shot into a real "pucker up" moment.

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