[Patrick_Mucci]

At what elevation differential does a par three transition from a sporty, challenging hole to a gimmickie hole ?

At what height differential does the tee shot transition from a calibrated or calculated attempt to a lucky attempt ?

[Powell Arms]

For the downhill shot, I think the drop in elevation can be quite substantial, and would say that a drop of 100 ft is acceptable.  Beyond that, and I think the challenge becomes a bit hokey long term and perhaps fun short term.  (Thinking of #12 at the Princeville Prince course as right on the border for a par 4)

For uphill, I think the blind nature of the short makes the acceptbale change in elevation much less.  IMO, anything beyond 30-40 feet appears to be a gimmic and a failure in routing.

[Tom_Doak]

Powell:  I think you're way off on both counts.

What is the highest drop-shot par-3 you've seen that you think is a really good hole?  I'd nominate the 7th at San Francisco Golf Club.  I'll double check the elevation change there next week, but I think it's maybe 50 feet downhill.

At some point soon after that, the downhill-ness gets to be so much that judgment of distance is just a pure guess (with local knowledge being a major factor).

[Joe Hancock]

Interesting question. I'll be interested to hear if it only can be answered by opinion, or will there be any mathematical explanation.

If I were to throw out an opinion, and a guess at that, I would say anything more than a 40 foot drop would really require a bit of luck.

The thing about the big drop shot 3's is that they usually don't provide a way to get a runner on the green.

Joe

[Tim Bert]

I'm not sure I can cite a specific elevation, but I feel like anything more than a 1.5 club adjustment starts to feel a bit forced.  2+ club downhill holes seem to be more about getting the golfer to say "I played a really cool, elevated par 3 the other day."  I guess it is okay if the hole is needed to transition between two distinct elevations on the land, but it still feels gimmicky to me.

Two examples for me:

Devil's Cauldron at Banff.  It was probably a club to a club-and-a-half for me.  It fit the land very well, and it is fun to play.  Doesn't feel like too much.

Sugarloaf in Maine.  There's a par 3 on the back nine (I think it is #11 or #12 but I don't recall exactly) that feels like you are standing directly over the hole and just need to drop something off the shelf.  If I remember correctly, you also had to climb a good bit to get to the tee just to then proceed back down to the green, so it didn't feel like that decision HAD to be made in the routing.

I'm not sure how much elevation differential there is between these two holes, but I'd say somewhere in that range defines the difference for me.

[Powell Arms]

Powell:  I think you're way off on both counts.

What is the highest drop-shot par-3 you've seen that you think is a really good hole?  I'd nominate the 7th at San Francisco Golf Club.  I'll double check the elevation change there next week, but I think it's maybe 50 feet downhill.

At some point soon after that, the downhill-ness gets to be so much that judgment of distance is just a pure guess (with local knowledge being a major factor).

Tom, I agree that as a rule, as the quality of the hole increases, the max distance of the drop becomes smaller.  I'll be interested to hear the dimensions on SFGC.  At this hour on Friday, my judgement could be questioned.

[Tim Bert]

I just found a couple sources on the Internet that cite the Devil's Cauldron elevation change at 70 feet.  That feels about right to me.  I'd peg the Sugarloaf hole to be at least 100.  

Just saw Tom Doak's post, and I'd throw Devil's Cauldron into the mix as the most elevation change in a truly great drop-shot hole.  I think it might be one of the few he hasn't played, unless he finally found the time to get there this summer.

[Tim Bert]

What's the elevation change from the upper tee at #10 Pacific Dunes.  30-40 feet?

[David Stamm]

What's the drop on the 7th at Stone Eagle? 80ft? It's visually scary, that's for sure. I'm not sure that's the limit or not, but it leapt to mind when TD mentioned SFGC.

[Bob_Huntley]

Pat,

A couple of holes at Vail come to mind but cannot remember the club.

If Spyglass has a weakness, it is that that three of the four short holes are drop shots. The third being the severest and the 15th so short as not to be too difficult to pull out the right club.

Bob

[John Kirk]

What's the drop on the 7th at Stone Eagle? 80ft? It's visually scary, that's for sure. I'm not sure that's the limit or not, but it leapt to mind when TD mentioned SFGC.

I think Stone Eagle #7 is about 150 feet down.  Too much to be a great hole.  Nice view across the valley from the tee.

The 7th can be played as a long 3/short 4 from the front of the 6th green, where it's only about half as big a drop.  But we always go to the top and tee off.  A big 6-iron shot, typically 175 yards or so, will typically reach the front half of the 7th green, say 205-215 yards.

[Rick Shefchik]

What is the height differential between tee and green on #7 at Pebble Beach? Whatever it is, that would certainly fall within the acceptable level for a great hole.

[John Pflum]

At some point soon after that, the downhill-ness gets to be so much that judgment of distance is just a pure guess (with local knowledge being a major factor).

I'll agree on that point.  There's a course in Fairfiled Glad, TN called Stonehenge that has a par three where the drop must be 100+ feet.  It's in a resort area and I doubt many people play the course on a regular basis.  It is a fun hole but is a total guess regarding club selection.  

[Joe Perches]

At what elevation differential does a par three transition from a sporty, challenging hole to a gimmickie hole ?

I think anything more than a slope average of 7 or 8% (20 to 25' per 100 yards) is too much elevation change.   A smooth, continuous slope is also dull.  I prefer the elevation change  to be immediately downhill after the tee or uphill before the green.  More slope than 7 or 8% can give great views but are generally poor golf holes.

[Bill Gayne]

I think a major factor in answering this question that needs to be considered is the prevailing/typical wind conditions.

[George Pazin]

The only dropshot par 3 I've seen that I really liked was the 7th at Lehigh. I think it is primarily because the green seems to be hugely pitched, high back to low front, so chipping and putting still remains fun.

Other than that, most downhill shots are mostly beginner fun holes.

Kind of ironic for me to say that.

I infinitely prefer an uphill blind par 3, especially with a skyline green.

[Dale_McCallon]

At some point soon after that, the downhill-ness gets to be so much that judgment of distance is just a pure guess (with local knowledge being a major factor).

I'll agree on that point.  There's a course in Fairfiled Glad, TN called Stonehenge that has a par three where the drop must be 100+ feet.  It's in a resort area and I doubt many people play the course on a regular basis.  It is a fun hole but is a total guess regarding club selection.  

So does this mean "quirk" should not be used on resort courses.  Using this theory, blindness, depth perception, etc shouldn't be used if it makes club selection more difficult.  

[John Mayhugh]

At some point soon after that, the downhill-ness gets to be so much that judgment of distance is just a pure guess (with local knowledge being a major factor).

I'll agree on that point.  There's a course in Fairfiled Glad, TN called Stonehenge that has a par three where the drop must be 100+ feet.  It's in a resort area and I doubt many people play the course on a regular basis.  It is a fun hole but is a total guess regarding club selection.  

The big problem with the 14th at Stonehenge is there is a stone wall around the green.  Left and long are both in the hazard.  I think the unknown yardage can be fun, but if you're guessing on yardage you need a bit more room to miss.  There's room short but that's about it.

[Ken Moum]

So does this mean "quirk" should not be used on resort courses.  Using this theory, blindness, depth perception, etc shouldn't be used if it makes club selection more difficult.  

Whether it should be used on resport courses or not is debatable, but I think the fact that some architects rarely, if ever, use such devices are why they are so popular among vacation golfers or anyone who plays a course only once or twice.

I enjoy the challenge of those devices, but a little bit goes a long ways when you are playing a new course on a holiday. There's a limit to how many times most golfers are willing to say, "Well I wouldn't do that nexst time," on a course where there's almost no chance of them coming back for another round.

Ken

[Bill Brightly]

14th at Stonehenge? Snap!

Awesome view, but if I want that view, I'll go up in a ski lift. As a golf hole, it is gimmicky.

[Doug Ralston]

Eagle Ridge #13, obviously. Drop is 240ft. It is, of course, a par-4, not par-3. Quirky? Maybe. But I have never seen anyone take only one shot from there, not matter how good the 1st one is, unless pushed by trailing group. Just too fun.

http://parks.ky.gov/golftrail/18hole/yl/gallery/

click on bottom left picture.

Doug

[Tim Gavrich]

I looked up #11 at Sugarloaf--it's a 122' drop.  I still think it's a really neat hole.  It causes the golfer's heart to jump into his throat for a few seconds while he/she waits to see if the ball is going to carry the Carrabassett River.  It's a hole that you feel like playing again; to me, that makes it a good hole.

My home course in CT has two par 3s that drop about 75', and while I find them exciting, I can see why people might find two such holes on the same course a little repetitive.  I must also note that one of the other par 3s rises about 35' from tee to green, and it's a really good hole too.

[Sean_A]

Interesting question. I'll be interested to hear if it only can be answered by opinion, or will there be any mathematical explanation.

If I were to throw out an opinion, and a guess at that, I would say anything more than a 40 foot drop would really require a bit of luck.

The thing about the big drop shot 3's is that they usually don't provide a way to get a runner on the green.

Joe

Joe

There you go thinking like a Yank again.  I think its #15 at Gullane #3 which drops quite a spell - maybe 50-60 feet (perhaps more), but there is nothing to stop you from hitting the green with a putter.  I played the hole with a strong tail wind and bumped an 8 iron down the hill.  However, there is no way I could say this is a good hole!

In most cases I would say anything more than 30-40 feet tops up or down for a one shotter is a routing problem - either the land isn't top notch, there were restrictions/limitations/client demand or the archie just screwed up.  

Ciao

[Joe Hancock]

Interesting question. I'll be interested to hear if it only can be answered by opinion, or will there be any mathematical explanation.

If I were to throw out an opinion, and a guess at that, I would say anything more than a 40 foot drop would really require a bit of luck.

The thing about the big drop shot 3's is that they usually don't provide a way to get a runner on the green.

Joe

Joe

There you go thinking like a Yank again.  I think its #15 at Gullane #3 which drops quite a spell - maybe 50-60 feet (perhaps more), but there is nothing to stop you from hitting the green with a putter.  I played the hole with a strong tail wind and bumped an 8 iron down the hill.  However, there is no way I could say this is a good hole!

In most cases I would say anything more than 30-40 feet tops up or down for a one shotter is a routing problem - either the land isn't top notch, there were restrictions/limitations/client demand or the archie just screwed up.  

Ciao

Sean,

There you go, comprehending like a (Brit?)European again.....

When I included the word "usually" in my statement, it was because I know of at least one hole such as the one you describe at Gullane. But, that doesn't make it a common feature of drop shot par 3's now, does it?

Thanks, though, for keeping an eye on my logic, as it is "usually" a bit suspect....

Joe

[Sean_A]

Interesting question. I'll be interested to hear if it only can be answered by opinion, or will there be any mathematical explanation.

If I were to throw out an opinion, and a guess at that, I would say anything more than a 40 foot drop would really require a bit of luck.

The thing about the big drop shot 3's is that they usually don't provide a way to get a runner on the green.

Joe

Joe

There you go thinking like a Yank again.  I think its #15 at Gullane #3 which drops quite a spell - maybe 50-60 feet (perhaps more), but there is nothing to stop you from hitting the green with a putter.  I played the hole with a strong tail wind and bumped an 8 iron down the hill.  However, there is no way I could say this is a good hole!

In most cases I would say anything more than 30-40 feet tops up or down for a one shotter is a routing problem - either the land isn't top notch, there were restrictions/limitations/client demand or the archie just screwed up.  

Ciao

Sean,

There you go, comprehending like a (Brit?)European again.....

When I included the word "usually" in my statement, it was because I know of at least one hole such as the one you describe at Gullane. But, that doesn't make it a common feature of drop shot par 3's now, does it?

Thanks, though, for keeping an eye on my logic, as it is "usually" a bit suspect....

Joe

Joe

There was no way I was gonna let you get away with the typical GCA.com ass-covering qualifier.  Usually schmoozually!

Ciao

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