Poconos, hidden gems or wasted talent?

[sharkmanbll]

I've spent a lot of time in the poconos in Northeastern PA and i have been increasingly aware of some of the big name classic archetects that have spent some time and designed some courses in this area.  Shawnee Country Club-Tillinghast, Buck Hill-Donald Ross, Pocono Manor-Fazio and Ross, Tamiment-Robert Trent Jones, Great Bear-Nicklaus, Glen Brook-Robert White, Wilks Barre Golf Club-Geoffrey Cornish, Saucon Valley-Dick Gordon

Please tell me what you think about either some of the coures or the area itself

[Mike_Cirba]

Sharkmanbill;

I wish the report was brighter...

I've played all of the courses you mentioned, and in summary, the courses of the Poconos can be summed up as LOTS of quirk, a good degree of fun, some scenic vistas, and really pretty disappointing golf, inevitably.

Shawnee has very little Tillinghast left.

Buck Hill has some very good holes, is gorgeous in the fall, but is not one of Ross's best.

Pocono Manor East is fun, with 9 by Ross and 9 by Flynn, and is as quirky as golf comes.  The West course is dullsville.

Tamiment starts with about 2-3 good holes, and has perhaps another 2 on the back nine that stay in the memory.  Beyond that, it's hardly memorable.

Great Bear is one of the most solid Nicklaus courses I've played, and the cream of the crop in the Poconos.  Fortunately, it's a kinder, gentler Bear than many of his other efforts around the globe.

Glen Brook is bizarre, and requires both a sense of adventure as well as a sense of humor.  Ditto one you didn't mention by White, that being Water Gap Country Club.  Some holes, due to the severe sideslopes and lack of irrigation are impossible to keep a ball in the fairway.

Wilkes Barre is a very good muni that is underrated in the state.  I used to play high school matches there, and it's probably not quite as good as I recall, but for municipal golf it's quite a value.

Saucon Valley is lovely, but generally overrated.

Hope this helps.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Mike,

Have you or anyone else ever played Huntsville (Rees Jones)near Wilkes Barre? It often gets rated in Pennsylvania ratings, but have not talked with anyone who has played it. I am traveling that way on occasion, and could make the detour to play it.

[Rees Basher Not]

Huntsville has maybe 2 bizzare holes, but quite worthy a detour.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike;

Huntsville is worth a detour, and it's on some GREAT land.  In fact, it's one of the better inland sites for a golf course I've seen, on some 400 rolling acres.

The course itself is overshaped, which is unneccessary given the wonderful land.

But, it also has some fine golf holes, which pretty much culminate at about the 13th hole.  14 is one of the most bizarre par fives of my aquaintance, and the last 4 holes are pretty standard stuff, so inevitably, it's somewhat of a letdown

Still, the front nine has some really good stuff, and the good holes make the visit worthwhile, certainly.  

[GeoffreyC]

Huntsville is a good spot to look at the evolution of Rees' style. As Mike said, its a really good golf course, good enough to be placed somewhere between 50-60 on Golfweek's list of top Modern courses.  If one looks at courses like Fiddlers Elbow (Forest), there are excellent golf holes but its WAY overshaped, artificial and the routing is a real mess.  Built a few years later, Huntsville is still overshaped (still concave to use Mike Cirba's term to hold shots in and to self contain each hole) but the routing is far better and the hole strategies more sophisticated.  Rees took more chances (ie.- the split fairway #11 which has been discussed here and some wilder greens) but it still looks artificial.  I agree with Mike about hole #14 and the finisher is a bland uphill, long/difficult par 4 SLOG to the clubhouse but it is a really fine effort on excellent land.  I think the style undergoes another transformation with Ocean Forest and Olde Kinderhook which are considerably more natural looking and fit the land to a better degree.

Mike Sweeney- go play Huntsville if given the chance.  I'd be happy to hear your comments.

[Craig Rokke]

I've played a few of the listed courses, too. I like Pocono
Manor East for fun, quirky golf. I'll agree with Mike that the West is boring. Many of the greens are really on the small side
considering the whites play from close to 6800 yards. Maintenance can also be an issue. Mike, I'd never heard Flynn's name mentioned along with PM-East before.

Buck Hill is my favorite course in the area, but there are
some very forgettable holes that were built more recently,
probably in the 60's or 70's, to accomodate housing. A number of holes are excellent, but I'd agree the course does not approach Ross's best. In a lot of ways, the course has a real "old time" feel to it.

Hideaway Hills in Kresgeville has some pretty good holes including a 210 yard par three (#9?)and a reachable par 5 (#10?)with perhaps the largest vertical drops I've ever seen on a golf hole. There's also a goofy par 4 on the back which
is somewhat indicative of Pocono golf at its worst. It sports a green cantilevered into the mountainside. Anything missed left is history. Walking the course,  is pretty much out of the question.

I've been wanting to play Great Bear for a few years, and hope to get out there sometime this fall.

Overall, I'd say Pocono golf disappoints. Great Bear,
Huntsville, (and another one in Moosic which I can't think of right now) are just about the only courses built in the last
30 years. The rest aren't worth going too far out of your
way for (unless you're visiting the in-laws, and need to get out for a few hours like me )

[Dan Grossman]

I liked Stone Hedge up near Wilkes-Barre.  Its been a while since I played it, so I can't offer much detail.  I know Mike Cirba has commented on it (and liked it as well, if memory serves).

[Mike_Cirba]

Dan;

Yes, Stone Hedge is the best public accessible golf course in the immediate Scranton area.  Designed by Jim Blaukovitch, who is pretty ubiquitous in eastern PA, there are some superb holes on the front nine, including the impossible par four second, and then just a splendid back nine through wooded areas that exemplifies what mountain golf can be.  

Unfortunately, I think this course was Blaukovitch's first, and he's never risen to this level since, although Olde Homstead above Allentown is pretty good, as well.  

I'm hoping to get up to play the CC of Scranton soon, which I've walked a number of times but never played.  Walter Travis was responsible, and it looks a blast.

[Matt_Ward]

Quick few comments on the Poconos -- the Myrtle Beach of the Northeast.

Mike Cirba hit the nail on the hit when he said plenty of quirky stuff -- I'll go a bit further and say plenty of dog food golf. Lots of overpriced and badly routed courses that as Mike said you best keep your smiles on your face no matter what happens. And plenty will.

I do like Great Bear -- believe it's the best overall public test in the area of Pennsy that's east of I-81 and north of I-80. Jack didn't carried way with the design there -- very fair and challenging all the way around.

I also like Stone Hedge -- arguably the 2nd hole there would easily make the top 18 public holes in the Keystone State. What a mind blower after playing the pathetic 1st hole! I also like the par-5's there because in most instances all the shots are indeed fun and challenging. The closing hole is also a blast. Too bad the facility can't make head way in such a far off the beaten trail like Tunckhannock Twsp. The course clearly could be so much more.

Ditto the comments of others on Huntsville -- also like to mention Glenmaura National -- good layout from the Hurdzan / Fry tandem in the Scranton area, but not worthy a special trip to play outside 100 miles.

Also would like to mention Wilkes-Barre Muni. Here's a Cornish course that simply is just waiting for a major restoration and could be something much, much more. Does anyone if anything is happening there. Really like the 11th and 12th holes!

[JN]

Agree that Great Bear is good stuff, quite well done for Jack.  Very receptive to outside play.  Last year a fooursome could play mid week for $50 a head.  Worth twice that compared to what.

[Henry Hudson]

No one has mentioned Eagles Mere.  I played it ten years ago--and it was 100 years old then.  I remember small greens and going back and forth.
However, I'm sure the designer qualifies as being dead!

[John Foley]

I usually do a trip to the Pocono's every fall for golf w/ friends. The location works as a central meeting point for the NYC,PA,CT, Western NY. I've talked to Mike C about this and it's just a shame that the golf there is so poor. W/ the terrain, abundance of land and the closesness to that NYC/Phil area, you would think that someone would come up w/ a good product.

Usually play Buck Hill Falls. The 9 closest to the pro shop is far & away the best. Small greens w/ plenty of movement. A very good routing and some pretty good holes (3-5 is a great streach of Par 5-5-3). Agreed on Stone Hedge. If that was an hour south of Scranton rather than north of Scanton it' would get a ton of press. Some very strong holes. That #2 is a BEAST. I seem to remeber the Par 3's being sporty. have not been to Great Bear yet. Will try this year.

What we need is someone to uncover Tillie's plans for Poxono and build it. Then you might have a chance for a great course in the area.

[Matt_Ward]

John Foley:

Among the reasons why the Poconos fails is that there is no concerted union of golf courses under some sort of functional umbrella (i.e. Myrtle Beach / Grand Strand, Ocean City (MD), Cape Cod). In simple terms -- everybody's doing their own thing and as a result "their own thing" is really quite comical.

The Poconos is really not known once you leave the immediate Northeast region because so little is done to promote and drive golf traffic there.

In addition, some of the golf in the region makes the pyramids in Egypt look new. The facilities are a hodge-podge of collective junk with the exception of a handful of places -- Woodloch Springs, Great Bear, etc, etc. Clearly, quality private golf does exist but that does nothing for the non-affiliated player.

The issue for the Poconos is do they see golf as something more than just a part-time part-season "recreational" diversion? Golf is treated in the Poconos like rec softball. Few of the facilities have invested one nickel -- let alone anything substanial in bringing up to speed their individual layouts.

Until that's done the same tale of the Poconos will keep on playing over and over again.

John, you're absolutely right. The land and possibilities are there, but I'll tell you this from a Jersey perspective. Years back Jersey golfers would trek out on I-80 and head there. No more. Jersey golfers can now play quality upscale courses in Hunterdon, Warren and Sussex counties in the Garden State. What's happening now is that more and more Pennsy license plates can be seen in places such as Architect's Club, Hawk Pointe and NJ National than you might think.

Hope this helps ...  

[archie struthers]

Fox Hill


Rather obscure but really neat Tillinghouse golf course near Scranton. Played there in the GAP team matches this spring and was impressed. There appears to be a couple new holes that aren't as classic, but I couldn't get much information at the time. A fun (my most important characteristic) classy little golf course. The new equipment has made it on the shortish side!

[Craig Rokke]

I think Matt is accurate in his depiction of the region. Long-term, look for both Pocono Manor and the development company that owns Jack Frost/Big Boulder to construct new courses. The Jack Frost group is apparently going to use
a twenty year old set of RTJ Sr's plans.

My father in law just played a newer private club near Hazleton ("Wood--something or other) that he said
was quite good by the area's standards. Wish I could remember the name.

[John Foley]

Matt,

Amen to that. Ancient facilitites is an understatement! I would love to end up and play Hawk Pointe or Architects, but other reasons take us into the heart of the Pocono's.

Craig,

Where is the property for RTJ Sr's plans? Is it near Pocono Manor?

[Matt_Ward]

Figure out the following calculation ...

Poconos Golf (PA) & Sullivan County Golf (NY) =

GHOST TOWN !!!

The $$$ boys don't see these areas as being anywhere near the first page of consumer interest. In this day and age of jet travel the nostaglia of Sullivan County and the Poconos is really nonexistent. Nearly all traffic that comes to the area is day trippers. Both of those locales are at best campy and at worst a nightmare in terms of quality facilities. Without a major rebranding / mktg effort the future is a dead-end.

Craig:

The name of the course is Eagle Wood I believe. Designed by the Palmer team the layout is OK, but the routing is quite poor as it goes in circular loops to maximize housing sales. I really believe a high profile quality golf course be built in the area because the terrain there is simply awesome.

[Mike_Cirba]

Matt/Craig;

I believe the course in question is Eagle Rock, which started out to be a Palmer Design with the original owner who went belly-up before construction, and then was taken over by the Double Diamond group out of Dallas, who used the 9-hole Palmer routing, did their own construction, and then built another 9 holes using their own guys.

Some beautiful views out there, and little else unless one loves boulder lined ponds, serious elevation change, and lifeless greens. Of course, I've only played the original nine holes and owned a lot up there pre-divorce.  Thankfully, she kept that!  

[JBergan]

I've played Eagle Rock (the original nine) a bunch of times.  The greens have definitely been "dumbed down" since the course first opened.  They were too fast for the majority of the people the course caters to (18+ handicap, retirees).  There are some good greens with some nice contour (#4 comes to mind) but off the tee the course is pretty dull.  They missed a nice opportunity on the par 4 5th, which plays about 450 downhill, with a very steep drop off just inside of the 150 mark.  I would have liked to have seen a shorter, potentially driveable par 4 with a risk/reward blinf tee shot.  

The par fives are poorly designed.  The first par five (#3, I think) has a fairway that slopes left to right in the landing area; the tee is offset to the left, which forces the tee shot to be played right of center, and just about every tee shot ends up in the right rough.  

The second par five calls for a forced lay up off the tee because of a lake (which looks like a water filled mining pit, very unattractive) which stretches across the width of the fairway.  The green on this hole is another one I like.

I have not seen the completed second nine.  I did see a lot of it under construction, and it looked like the fairways were going to be concave with mounded sides, in an attempt to keep balls in play.  Yuck.

[Craig Rokke]

I believe the the new J Frost/B boulder course will be close
to the ski areas. They own a boatload of acreage.

[Henry Hudson]

No one has commented on Eagles Mere in Eagles Mere, PA

[Mike_Cirba]

Henry;

I'm aware that William Flynn is largely responsible for the present course at Eagles Mere, but haven't played and don't know anyone who has.

What's it like?  Would you recommend it?

[Craig_Rokke]

Has anyone played Woodloch Springs? How about Towanda CC?

[Mike_Cirba]

Craig;

Woodloch Springs is a course to see, simply because it's on severe land and is a good example of "target golf" (if there's such a thing).

A friend of mine has some property there, and we usually have an outing every August.  There are some very imaginative holes, and it's the type of course that can murder a player who is having an off day.  

There is hardly a hole that is not interesting in some respect, and I'd call it a fun place for match-play.  It is only about 6,600 yards, but placement is everything, particularly on the 577 yard 14th, called Hells Gate Gorge, where you drive over a DEEP canyon and must carry it over 200 yards to reach the fairway.  From there the hole turns left twice, with a demanding approach over a wetlands area.  

The greens are wildly undulating, yet still playable and fun.

It's not a course that classicists would love, clearly.  However, given the site limitations, the condos, and all the other things that could have made this place an unmitigated disaster, the fact that it provides fun and excitement, along with gorgeous scenery and reasonable good golf are reasons not to pass it up if you're in the area.

From the back tees, which I recommend playing for the sheer fun and psychological intimidation factors, there are few courses of this length more terrifying.  No, I haven't lost my mind, nor would I want a steady diet of this kind of white-knuckle torture, but for something uniquely different once in a while....sort of like ordering the Blowfish sushi...  

You can have a look at some of the wild ones (i.e 3, 7, 14, 16, 18) at the link below;

http://www.woodloch.com/golf/maincourse.html