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gookin

Yale in the Top 10
« on: October 26, 2007, 05:49:02 PM »
Earlier this month I had my first trip to Yale. After two days of play, I am convinced that if Yale were maintained to the same standards as courses like Oakmont, Merion or Pine Valley it would be on everyone's top 10 list. Does anyone agree with me and why?

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Yale in the Top 10
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2007, 06:17:13 PM »
Top Ten? No. Maybe top 100. But great track, lots of fun to play.
Superintendent told me me he has 8 guys on his grounds crew, compared to 25-30 or more at the top courses....Probably similar disparities in overall ground expenditures...Not a fair comparison.
However, they seem to be making great strides.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2007, 06:17:38 PM by Bill Brightly »

BVince

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Yale in the Top 10
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2007, 06:20:14 PM »
David, I tend to agree with you.  Yale is fun and holds your attention through all of the 18 holes.  For that, I think the course is very underrated and I am sure that the conditioning has something to do with it.  If upkeep was better I think the course would crack the top 25.  The top 10 is a stretch.
If profanity had an influence on the flight of the ball, the game of golf would be played far better than it is. - Horace Hutchinson

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re:Yale in the Top 10
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2007, 07:21:50 PM »
David,

I'm with you. If the third green was restored, the Roger Rulewich bunkers taken out and the Raynor ones restored, I think it would have a shot at Top 10 without a problem.

Anthony

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Yale in the Top 10
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2007, 08:26:40 PM »
I had the opportunity to play Yale once a couple of years ago and look forward to playing it again. I loved it
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

John Kavanaugh

Re:Yale in the Top 10
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2007, 08:28:39 PM »
I had the opportunity to play Yale once a couple of years ago and look forward to playing it again. I loved it

How would you rate it against Lakota Canyon?

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Yale in the Top 10
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2007, 09:58:40 PM »
Which course in Golf Magazines top ten would Yale replace?

1. Pine Valley
2. Cypress Point
3. Augusta National
4. Pebble Beach
5. Shinnecock
6. Oakmont
7. Merion
8. Sand Hills
9. Pacific Dunes
10. NGLA

There are some really good golf courses between #75 and #10 that Yale would need to past.

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Yale in the Top 10
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2007, 10:12:09 PM »
Ah, he means MacRaynor top ten!

NGLA
Fishers Island
Piping Rock
St. Louis
Fox Chapel
Carmargo
Sleepy Hollow
Essex County
Chicago Golf club
Shoreacres
Lookout Mountain
Mid Ocean
« Last Edit: October 26, 2007, 10:16:59 PM by Bill Brightly »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Yale in the Top 10
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2007, 11:23:53 PM »
That last list is a bit off base; by my estimation Yale would be better than seven of those ten.  But that still wouldn't put it in the top ten in America.

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Yale in the Top 10
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2007, 09:01:22 AM »
I did not spend any time ranking the MacRaynor top ten. (Maybe someone else can do that?) However, it raises an interesting question about course conditioning versus architecture.

I think Yale is a GREAT Raynor course from an architectual standpoint, but the conditioning of the course is not a top 100 course.

When golfers come up with their own rankings, they are balancing design with turf conditions. So I think the question is how much does turf conditioning detract from a great design? I think serious golfers would prefer a course with a slightly inferior design in superb condition, to a superb design in fair condition.

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Yale in the Top 10
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2007, 09:30:20 AM »

When golfers come up with their own rankings, they are balancing design with turf conditions. So I think the question is how much does turf conditioning detract from a great design? I think serious golfers would prefer a course with a slightly inferior design in superb condition, to a superb design in fair condition.

I don't know about that. I played Ballyneal for example, and thought it was one of the best designs I have played. It was not in the best condition, the greens were slow, but it was so much fun that didn't matter. I can't wait to see that course after a few years when it is more mature.

I also played Northland CC in Minnesota and it was not in the "best" condition, but boy was it fun. It was brown, the ball rolled and got some quirky bounces and I loved it. It was the surprise of my golf year for sure (I had never heard of it however most of you probably have).
Mr Hurricane

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Yale in the Top 10
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2007, 01:52:28 PM »
In the Letters to the Editor of the current issue of either Golf Magazine or Golf Digest, there is an absolutely scathing comment on Yale. Has anyone else read it?

Bob

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Yale in the Top 10
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2007, 02:02:42 PM »
"I don't know about that. I played Ballyneal for example, and thought it was one of the best designs I have played. It was not in the best condition, the greens were slow, but it was so much fun that didn't matter. I can't wait to see that course after a few years when it is more mature."

Jim,
Don't get me wrong, I love great design, and I'm sure that all of the golfers on this site have a great appreciation for good arhictecture, but the VAST majority of the golfing world is going to put a much higher emphasis on course conditioning. They are not going to come off a course raving about the design when the fairway turf was poor, etc.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Yale in the Top 10
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2007, 02:07:23 PM »
Bob,
What was the comment?
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Pete Stankevich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Yale in the Top 10
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2007, 03:42:39 PM »
Here's the cliff notes version of the letter:
"What a mess!  Deteriorated severely."
"Every green has a blight or disease."
"Slow greens and in poor condition."
"Substandard maintenance."
"Poor fairway and rough maintenance."
"Dead and cut down trees decaying and rotting stumps everywhere."
"Their cart was either out of charge or gas and the cart attendant gave little help."
"Practice range was a joke."
"The only good thing about it was the design."

Now I usually play Yale once a year and I haven't been there this year, but I would rather play Yale in the conditions he described above than 99.9% of the courses in CT.  
« Last Edit: October 27, 2007, 03:44:37 PM by Pete Stankevich »

Mark Bourgeois

Re:Yale in the Top 10
« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2007, 04:19:35 PM »
Bob,

I read that letter. It was a letter partly of ignorance and perhaps of just-plain meanness, which is to say either the writer didn't bother to ask in the pro shop, or decided to leave out what he would have been told.

This past summer Scott Ramsay embarked on an experimental approach to ridding the course of poa annua.
Here is Scott's letter to the membership, dated 6 August:

"I once heard an inspiring speech based on a chapter of the conquest of Mexico by Cortes.  The romantic version of this story has Cortes sailing to Mexico and when they arrived he gathered his landing party on the shoreline as he had their ships scuttled. They were committed.
There was no going back, no escape route and no plan B. The only thing that mattered was ahead of them, so commit to the success of the mission. I will let the historians separate fact and fiction.
 I am committed to the next step in improving the Yale Golf
Course.  Last year I began introducing many techniques that would lower our populations of annual bluegrass (AB) which has invaded and colonized the course and to increase the indigenous bentgrass (BG) populations. The goal is to improve the consistency of the golf course while reducing the need for pesticides and water.
The first step was to provide the proper conditions for success for the Yale Golf Course. That meant sunlight, air movement and healthy soil conditions. Anything less would be a waste of seed. Secondly alter the sequence of agronomic programs so that it favors the preferred grasses. We are now in the third phase where I have implemented a "controlled burn" that has caused thin stressed turf, which is the perfect seedbed for the newer varieties. I simply held back on water, fertilizer and pesticides to induce this condition. It has been a long trek this summer and they are simply hungry, thirsty and without medicine. The weak will not survive.

"This is the low point.

"Now is the time to seed and rebuild. So as counter intuitive as it
may sound, the uglier I can make the greens the quicker and more successful this plan will be. It is critical to time the interseeding during the high soil temperatures in August and before the cooler nights of September. AB seed will not germinate in the summer months but bentgrass will. Just like the technology revolution in golf equipment there are many newer grasses that can perform easily under modern conditions and expectations.
This year a new factor has made it even more critical to succeed and succeed now. We are limited by the Connecticut DEP on how much water we can use and we have been in violation since late in June 2007. We have been exceeding our daily permitted totals each day during this drought. Currently I can only use enough water to keep the BG alive or else I will be paying the King more than his fifth, revocation of all water use. The shorter rooted AB is stressed and struggling.
Right now it is exacerbating the current program but ultimately it
will prove this conversion is necessary. I have no choice but to use this water challenge as an opportunity to hasten the turf conversion.
The water diversion regulations are a new challenge for all of
Connecticut's golf courses and the university has pledged to resolve this new challenge. I will keep you updated.
In August we will be repeatedly seeding the greens and nursing along the new seedlings. They already have been seeded twice in the first week. The process is very easy and is barely distinguishable to sight and ball roll. I would like to be around for a while and to create a more sensible and sustainable situation for all of us. This has worked at my previous golf courses. A few more weeks and a few more pounds of seed is a solid long term investment into improving the Yale Golf Course so we can all enjoy it for years to come.

PS    This is a drastic program that many of my colleagues wouldn't attempt, but many in my business will be watching. You can always tell who the pioneers are; they are the ones with the arrows in their backs. Here are some of the links to my research."

<http://www.turfgrasstrends.com/turfgrasstrends/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=383551&ref=25&searchString=interseeding>http://www.turfgrasstrends.com/turfgrasstrends/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=383551&ref=25&searchString=interseeding

http://www.turfgrasstrends.com/turfgrasstrends/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=442840



Hope this helps,
Mark

Jon Spaulding

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Yale in the Top 10
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2007, 04:57:45 PM »
I played there last month for the first time and the course is simply fantastic; as intriguing a property as anything else I've seen.

As I don't subscribe to the magazine ratings, that's enough to put it on the personal "must play" list, which constitutes more than 10 or 100 courses!
You'd make a fine little helper. What's your name?

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Yale in the Top 10
« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2007, 06:43:42 PM »
That letter shows the total disconnect between golfers and supers. :'(
Who writes a letter like that to a golf magazine anyway? (and for that matter who prints it?)

Sad that condition has become that big of a deal that someone would trash a course and super over less than satisfactory greens.

Whatever happened to just teeing it up and playing?
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Yale in the Top 10
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2007, 06:56:23 PM »
What a shame that a letter like that gets published! I wish the writer had spoken to the superintendent first, but the magazine DEFINITELY should have!

Its clear that the superintendent has a plan. I also played it one month ago and the greens seem to be progressing nicely. I'll bet in 3 years they are excellent.

The tree removal progam seems to be off to a great start, I've seen the before and after pictures. The 18th hole has been dramtically improved. I think they need to give it time.

Gerry B

Re:Yale in the Top 10
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2007, 07:46:27 PM »
top 10 is very elite company however i would certainly put it in the top 50 on a bad day.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Yale in the Top 10
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2007, 07:47:24 PM »
I for one believe in Scott Ramsey. I think he will help make Yale into the course it should be, regardless of some ridiculous ranking or ridicule.

Scott is of a character that everyone should emulate themselves to be. Both he and Peter Pulaski have turned this thing around, and while the process maybe slow and arduous, when finished, The Golf Course at Yale will receive it's due.

Bravo!

Keep up the good work boys!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Yale in the Top 10
« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2007, 07:52:07 PM »
That is an excellent letter by Scott Ramsay.

As for the letter to the editor in GOLF, I think they are just trying to prove that they listen to their critics instead of ignoring them.  But they might have had an editor's note about the conditions, rather than just letting the reader berate the course without explanation; the way it was presented, you wonder if the editor doesn't agree.

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Yale in the Top 10
« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2007, 08:50:22 PM »
I wondered when I read it, if this was a subordinate agenda on the part of the writer.

Bob

wsmorrison

Re:Yale in the Top 10
« Reply #23 on: October 27, 2007, 09:44:10 PM »
Maybe the guy that wrote the Letter to the Editor was from Harvard ;D Sorry 'bout that Bob C  8)

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Yale in the Top 10
« Reply #24 on: October 27, 2007, 10:24:41 PM »
I believe Mr. Ramsay was named the GCSAA Superintendent of the Year for 2006, for his restoration efforts at Yale.  I wish him the best on this daring project.

This type of work fascinates me, and I will tuning in to see how the course fares.