[Phil Benedict]

The thread on #11 at the Creek and the Redan at North Berwick inspired me to ask for preferences on Redans, Biarritz, Edens and Shorts.  If this has been done a million times before I apologize.  Personally I haven't played enough CBM/SR/CB courses to have a preference, other than that I prefer the Biarritz at Fox Chapel to Yale's because it is out in the open rather than tree-lined.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Phil,

I love the "shorts" especially those with the pronounced horseshoe contour in the back center.

I love the steep sides that make recovery to a near side pin very difficult.

I also love the surrounding bunkering.

Perhaps that's because it reminds me of the old # 12 at GCGC

There's a neat collection of shorts, from Westhampton, to NGLA to The Knoll to Montclair.

Piping Rock's has been neutered and needs to be restored.

Many shorts have lost their donut like bunkering that surrounded the entire green save for the walkways.

That's a feature that gets overlooked when restorations are talked about.

[Tom_Doak]

By far my favorite of the four Macdonald template holes is the Short hole, because as far as I know, the horseshoe part of the green is an original concept of Macdonald's.

Their Redans are nearly all excellent golf holes, but few of them have the character of the original.

The Eden at St. Andrews is one of my favorite holes in the world, and none of the Macdonald / Raynor versions comes even close to it.  I do wonder why they didn't reproduce it more exactly, whether there was something about it Macdonald disliked.  As far as I know he never said as much.

The Biarritz is fourth out of four.

[scott_wood]

short.....the 9th @Mt Lake is esepcially fun and challenging.....the rather pronounced back to front slope when combined with the "full half donut" ( terminolgy patented btw) makes any approach to a pin location ON the donut extremely challenging , as the recovery, if long, requires the mastery of Seve, and, if the aproach is not pin high, leaves one with a putt of considerable length...
all on 105 to 145 yards...Thank You Seth....

[wsmorrison]

Ron Forse told me that Robert White designed some outstanding template holes during the late teens and through the 1920s.  I believe he mentioned some par 3 templates and said that he did a Road Hole concept that surpassed anything by Macdonald or Raynor.  I've only played Green Brook (NJ) and Skytop (PA) however, Ron's description of White is really intriguing.  What is known of White?

In my case, I think the horeshoe or other formal/overt green feature is a pretty bad idea despite the interesting playability.  I'm glad it went the way of other geometric features.

[Bill Brightly]

I'll take Redans over Shorts because of the greater golfing challenge presented.

TD raises a great question, why are there so few good Edens?

Did Banks or Raynor ever try to reproduce the strategy of the Strath bunker in front of the green? Seems to me that Banks simply built his with one "horsecollar" bunker encircling the green.

At Saucon Valley's Grace Course, William Gordon made an almost exact reproduction of St. Andrews High In, right down to the positioning of the bunkers and a severe back-to-front green tilt. Except he chose NOT to put the hole in front of the Saucon Creek, even though this River meandors throught the entire property, and would have nicely represented the River Eden.
I know why, do you?

[Jordan Wall]

Phil,

I love the "shorts" especially those with the pronounced horseshoe contour in the back center.

I love the steep sides that make recovery to a near side pin very difficult.

I also love the surrounding bunkering.

Perhaps that's because it reminds me of the old # 12 at GCGC

There's a neat collection of shorts, from Westhampton, to NGLA to The Knoll to Montclair.

Piping Rock's has been neutered and needs to be restored.

Many shorts have lost their donut like bunkering that surrounded the entire green save for the walkways.

That's a feature that gets overlooked when restorations are talked about.

Pat,

I would have thought you favored the Biarritz, particularly the 11th at The Creek Club.  The best par three in golf...

[cary lichtenstein]

I love the Barritz, especially the 9th at Yale, I consider it one of the best par 3's in golf

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wayno,

Stop drinking the tap water, someone's obviously contaminated it with mind altering drugs.

I'm sending an emergency supply of bottled water, however, it will not be Evian.

You don't like the horseshoe or donut contours on the "Short" holes ?   ?    ?

Jordan Wall,

Biarritz's tend NOT to follow a mold as "Shorts" do.

The 9th at Yale bears little resemblance to the 9th at Piping Rock or the 11th at The Creek, they're all distinctly different, and play differently, whereas, the "shorts" are almost universal in their appearance and play.

[wsmorrison]

"You don't like the horseshoe or donut contours on the "Short" holes ?  ?    ?"

No I don't, Pat.  I thought you were going to come down here for some fun in Philadelphia where we could have a friendly debate on lots of topics.  Now that Tom is slurping the super Tuscans in the land of your ancestors, are you going to postpone again?

[Gerry B]

i would have to gp with  the short- irrespective of the designer

my favorite cbm / raynor  / banks short holes  would be found at :

chicago
shoreacres
forsgate
ngla
lookout mountain

[Gerry B]

forgot the short at st louis country club - nice canting on the green

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wayno,

I appologize, but, things are really, really hectic, in a good sense.

I think I'm going to have to visit in late April or early May.

I've always been an advocate of internal contouring, especially pronounced contouring, so I"m surprised that you don't find it to be a desirable and interesting feature.

Might I suggest some nice reds and/or whites to counter the effects of the tap water you've been consuming in massive quantities.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jordan Wall,

Charlie Banks built a wonderful Biarritz at The Knoll.

There's also a good "Short" and Redan.

The Eden is probably 4th on the totem poll, but, it's a wonderful selection of par 3's, with great diversity and balance.

Each par three tests the golfer at different lengths with different approaches.

The Knoll is one of the most underrated courses in the Met area and the Country.

If it was to be restored quickly, and if it was a private club with the responsibility to be properly maintained, I could see it breaking into vaunted company.

[Jordan Wall]

Jordan Wall,

Charlie Banks built a wonderful Biarritz at The Knoll.

There's also a good "Short" and Redan.

The Eden is probably 4th on the totem poll, but, it's a wonderful selection of par 3's, with great diversity and balance.

Each par three tests the golfer at different lengths with different approaches.

The Knoll is one of the most underrated courses in the Met area and the Country.

If it was to be restored quickly, and if it was a private club with the responsibility to be properly maintained, I could see it breaking into vaunted company.

Pat,

Surely the 11th at The Creek Club is better than any of these holes, right?
 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Back OT,

I kind of like them all. As I have said before, I think each is a concept type shot that fits well on a par 3 where there is no shot related strategy from the tee shot.

TD raises an interesting point few would - how many would like the Short best because it was an original template rather than a copied one?  I trust the basic concept was the postage stamp at Troon, but maybe CBM wanted to "improve" on the old holes in Scotland as much as adapt them?

I share his view that the MacRaynor Edens generally don't seem to replicate the concept well, whereas the Redans do.  I like the Biarritz just for the "huh?" factor, even if I don't really understand how they were ever supposed to play in those days.

[RJ_Daley]

Blue Mound has an exellent set of all of them.  I'd rank them in terms of faithfullness to the template,

Redan, Biarritz, Short (due to drop shot nature not quite so stereotypical) and Eden.

I'd rank my preference of fun to play them at BM,

Short, Redan, Biarritz, Eden.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jordan Wall,

Better ?   In what context ?

Certainly in terms of variety, vis a vis club selection and hole location, # 11 at The Creek offers far more, and, the drama associated with # 11 is much higher due to the fact that it's an island green buffeted by winds off of LI Sound.

The short was never intended to play between 100 and 250 yards to a huge green.

It was intended to be a finesse, not a power hole.
A hole requiring precision and touch.

Each of the four templates mentioned had specific shot purposes, architectural and playability wise.

The variety in the play of # 11 is almost unlimited when you combine the variables of tee location, hole location and the WINDS.

[Bill Brightly]

RJ,

 I had not heard of that Raynor course. Are you a member? Have any pictures?

[Jim Sweeney]

Bill:

Blue Mound is in Wisconsin. Though it does not get the notice many other Raynor's do (perhaps because of its location) it is a fine golf course.



My vote goes as follows: short, redan, Biarritz, Eden. The short at Camargo (11) may be the best hole on the course.

The Edens always seem to be rather plain to me. I have not been to St. Andrews, so perhaps I just have no real frame of reference. But taking TD at his word....

[Jordan Wall]

Jordan Wall,

The variety in the play of # 11 is almost unlimited when you combine the variables of tee location, hole location and the WINDS.

Does this make it the best par-3 in golf?
Can the same not be said about CPC 16?

As the topic is conerned, I have never played a true redan, just copied versions, but they are fun.  I cannot wait to see some of the more famous template holes, and to try and play all the shots they ask for.

[wsmorrison]

"The short was never intended to play between 100 and 250 yards to a huge green."

The 11th at Creek Club wasn't intended to play between 100 and 250 yards either.  The front half of the present green, like nearly all the template Biarritz holes, was not intended to be green space.  It was intended to be a long one shot hole, played with a low running shot; very specific shot selection and testing.  The tees were extended 10 yards from the original design yardage.

[Tom Roewer]

Ron Forse told me that Robert White designed some outstanding template holes during the late teens and through the 1920s.  I believe he mentioned some par 3 templates and said that he did a Road Hole concept that surpassed anything by Macdonald or Raynor.  I've only played Green Brook (NJ) and Skytop (PA) however, Ron's description of White is really intriguing.  What is known of White?

In my case, I think the horeshoe or other formal/overt green feature is a pretty bad idea despite the interesting playability.  I'm glad it went the way of other geometric features.

Wayne:  Robert White wasthe first president of the Professional Golf Association (PGA) of America and a co-founder of the American Society of Golf Course Architects. Pine Lakes Intl. in Myrtle Beach might be his most known design. and Longue Vue Club (next door to Oakmont) is a good example of his design.  One article states; "Born in St. Andrews, Scotland, Mr. White's goal was always to design courses for every day member/player - not necessarily for championship and/or tournament play."  

[wsmorrison]

Thank you, Tom.  I believe the Road Hole that Ron Forse spoke so highly about is in northern New Jersey.  I'll have to find out which course it was.  None of the NJ courses listed in The Architects of Golf sounded like the one he one he mentioned.  If Pat or any of the NNJites recognize the hole, I'd welcome photographs and/or a discussion.

 

[Tom Roewer]

Ron Forse told me that Robert White designed some outstanding template holes during the late teens and through the 1920s.  I believe he mentioned some par 3 templates and said that he did a Road Hole concept that surpassed anything by Macdonald or Raynor.  I've only played Green Brook (NJ) and Skytop (PA) however, Ron's description of White is really intriguing.  What is known of White?

In my case, I think the horeshoe or other formal/overt green feature is a pretty bad idea despite the interesting playability.  I'm glad it went the way of other geometric features.

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