News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Michael Blake

Re:Golf in the Kingdom-A different View
« Reply #75 on: October 24, 2007, 04:04:30 PM »
Huck,

Great stuff.  I love those commercials.  The fantasy football one is my favorite.


I thought the book was silly.

I did enjoy the Bagger Vance book however.

Tom Huckaby

Re:Golf in the Kingdom-A different View
« Reply #76 on: October 24, 2007, 04:06:19 PM »
There is no hope for me.

And Michael, this is my new favorite:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0Y7yjxJVlc

 ;D

TEPaul

Re:Golf in the Kingdom-A different View
« Reply #77 on: October 24, 2007, 04:16:53 PM »
"See if you can find the "GCA Celebrity Death Match--Behr vs. Haultain" thread from 2003, when GolfClubAtlas was a kinder, gentler place...."

Richard:

Haultain couldn't wash Behr's shorts and I think you know that. But like a number of other things you just can't seem to bring yourself to admit the truth.

Gushing over how wonderful something like the first fresh footprints in the dew on the first hole is sort of special, I guess, for a middle-schooler.  ;)
« Last Edit: October 24, 2007, 04:19:46 PM by TEPaul »

Dan Kelly

Re:Golf in the Kingdom-A different View
« Reply #78 on: October 24, 2007, 04:19:43 PM »
Haultain couldn't wash Behr's shorts...


If Behr's shorts were as messy as his prose ... well, who could blame Haultain?
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Doug Wright

Re:Golf in the Kingdom-A different View
« Reply #79 on: October 24, 2007, 04:22:31 PM »
Peter

See if you can find the "GCA Celebrity Death Match--Behr vs. Haultain" thread from 2003, when GolfClubAtlas was a kinder, gentler place....

Rich

Rihc,

You mean this one?

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=1160;start=msg23240#msg23240

Twitter: @Deneuchre

Evan Fleisher

Re:Golf in the Kingdom-A different View
« Reply #80 on: October 24, 2007, 04:27:07 PM »
There is no hope for me.

And Michael, this is my new favorite:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0Y7yjxJVlc

 ;D

As a Miami Hurricanes lover (and I know they too suck right now too) and by default a Noter-Domer-Hater that one is a real classic!
Born Rochester, MN. Grew up Miami, FL. Live Cleveland, OH. Handicap 13.2. Have 26 & 23 year old girls and wife of 29 years. I'm a Senior Supply Chain Business Analyst for Vitamix. Diehard walker, but tolerate cart riders! Love to travel, always have my sticks with me. Mollydooker for life!

TEPaul

Re:Golf in the Kingdom-A different View
« Reply #81 on: October 24, 2007, 04:32:08 PM »
Behr looked into the subject of architecture via the mind of a golfer or an architect or artist and he looked into it deeper by a factor of about ten than anyone else ever did.

Behr's prose was merely a game on his part to induce the reader into feeling he was figuring things out on his own.

Oh, sorry, actually Behr's prose was a sport on his part to induce the reader into feeling he was figuring out things on his own.

Behr was the ultimate defender of Nature's place in golf. He was a naturalist and Nature to Behr is random.

You might call Behr's prose messy, but I'd call Behr's prose purposely random like Nature herself.

The only real problem Behr had with his writing is he apparently felt there weren't quite so many obtuse dolt-heads like Richard Farnsworth Goodale in his general audience. And that fact, my friends, is most definitely "in the premises". ;)
« Last Edit: October 24, 2007, 04:35:04 PM by TEPaul »

Kalen Braley

Re:Golf in the Kingdom-A different View
« Reply #82 on: October 24, 2007, 04:33:51 PM »
Ok ok ok....

Enough ND bashing on this site...Here is a nice feel good clip for the Golden Domers.  I must admit, it always gets a bit misty in the air when I watch the movie..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5L0ThLloD8

Michael Blake

Re:Golf in the Kingdom-A different View
« Reply #83 on: October 24, 2007, 04:34:15 PM »
Huck,

Don't let Mr Mucci see that one.


Here's a goody:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QX7MnGIW0to


Peter Pallotta

Re:Golf in the Kingdom-A different View
« Reply #84 on: October 24, 2007, 04:47:59 PM »
Dan K
you might well be right about Haultain being the better prose stylist, but I can't get past the feeling that he was mainly a fine writer and thoughtful man who just decided, for a little while, to turn his attention to golf...and then moved on. I think he probably could've written just as entertainingly about the mysteries of early physics, or ragtime, or talking pictures. That's a real talent; but that's not the same thing as being able to get to the heart of the subject-matter.  

I should be clear: I liked "Mysteries of Golf", but less than I thought I would; maybe I was expecting too much from it, given the title.  But I also think it harder to write well about a subject one really knows (because then you know its nuances and knotty-points and contradictions, but still have to make those clear to the reader) than it is about a subject one doesn't know that well, where rhetorical flourishes and the beauties of language might just save the day for you.

And then there's intangible sense of 'authority of voice', or lack of it. Listen to Louis Armstrong play 3 notes and you know that this is a master of his craft; he's forgotten more than most will ever know. I don't get that feeling from Haultain but do get it from Behr, a long-time champion golfer and an architect; so I tend to make more allowances for any lack of clarity in his writing. I just assume the problem lies with me.

Peter  

Doug - thanks for the link. I'd found it earlier but was bad in keeping it to myself. (I don't know how to do that 'link'). It is a fun read....and Dan K gets a reference in to Max Schmeling.  

Tom Huckaby

Re:Golf in the Kingdom-A different View
« Reply #85 on: October 24, 2007, 04:53:12 PM »
Huck,

Don't let Mr Mucci see that one.


Here's a goody:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QX7MnGIW0to



Oh please, I've used that on Mucci several times already.  It 's too good NOT to.

And kudos go to Scott Burroughs for sending that one to me in the first place.

Loved the Philadelphia sports fan one!


Kirk Gill

Re:Golf in the Kingdom-A different View
« Reply #86 on: October 24, 2007, 05:00:50 PM »
Haultain couldn't wash Behr's shorts...


If Behr's shorts were as messy as his prose ... well, who could blame Haultain?

A (short) Post of the Year candidate.........
« Last Edit: October 24, 2007, 05:10:30 PM by Kirk Gill »
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Richard Boult

Re:Golf in the Kingdom-A different View
« Reply #87 on: October 24, 2007, 05:52:52 PM »
I guess I better pipe in here since I'm a "wacko" Shivas Irons Society member ;).

My introduction to the society resulted from first reading Fred Shoemaker's book - Extraordinary Golf. I had just started playing golf regularly 6 months prior, and the day after reading Fred's book, I shot a 76. Several months later, I was doing so regularly.  Fred's book really resonated with me and inspired me to coach myself, and I've now gotten down below 4 with only a single lesson.

Years earlier, I had started reading Golf in the Kingdom.  I was drawn to the book's insights into the game of golf and the spirit with which it can be played, but I must have been disappointed at some level and never finished the book. But after learning about Shoemaker's affiliation with Michael Murphy, I gave the book another try. Admittedly, I did get more out of the book the second time.

A couple excerpts from the book I enjoyed include Shivas' reminder that "your handicap is not an exact mirror of your soul, it is your relation to your score that really counts," reminding us that the game can be about self-discovery instead of just about performance. And that golf is played at many levels and for many reasons, but as Murphy shares, "Golf is first a game of seeing and feeling. It can teach you stillness of mind and a sensitivity to the textures of wind and green. Golf is also a game to teach you about the messages from within, about the subtle voices of the body-mind. And once you understand them you can more clearly see the ways in which your approach to the game reflects your entire life."

After rereading the novel, I found out about the Shivas Irons Society and checked out their website, and learned there that they had an upcoming event scheduled near me at Alisal Ranch. I decided to join to see what these people were like, seriously expecting as Tom Huckaby does, that they'd be a bunch of wackos. Instead, I found them to be a very interesting group of people, nearly all quite successful in their careers, that simply love the game of golf.  They were pretty good golfers too.

Then, last month, I joined them again for a trip to Bandon Dunes, at a weeklong event hosted by the SIS and Fred Shoemaker.  As Bob Huntley shared, Fred is certainly as good a shotmaker as anyone, and gets a lot of distance out of those 150 pounds! He's a great teacher/coach too.

I got to play with Fred the first day on the 1st 9 holes at Bandon Trails. I was a little nervous, but not overly so. I bogied the 1st hole with a 3-putt, but then settled down and came in only 1-over par after 9.  I don't know if it was his influence or not, but I birdied 3 holes and we both drove the short par 4 8th.  My 160 pounds did a pretty good job keeping up with his 150. He just looked better doing it ;)

Anyway, I again enjoyed the company of this, perhaps eccentric, but not too wacky group. I expect they were a little more liberal that I am, but they were very fun group to spend the week playing golf with.

Tom Huckaby

Re:Golf in the Kingdom-A different View
« Reply #88 on: October 24, 2007, 05:55:32 PM »
RB:  that's great stuff.

Just please re-read what I wrote... I said

The shivas irons society is a bunch of wackos.. and I think they'd admit that and relish the title.

It was meant as a term of endearment, not an indictment in any way.

TH
« Last Edit: October 24, 2007, 05:57:30 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Richard Boult

Re:Golf in the Kingdom-A different View
« Reply #89 on: October 24, 2007, 06:02:50 PM »
TH: I read it as you intended ;)... it gave me a chuckle, so I had to refer to it.

Tom Huckaby

Re:Golf in the Kingdom-A different View
« Reply #90 on: October 24, 2007, 06:31:35 PM »
TH: I read it as you intended ;)... it gave me a chuckle, so I had to refer to it.

Gotcha!  Very cool, just wanted to make sure.

TH

Bill Gayne

Re:Golf in the Kingdom-A different View
« Reply #91 on: October 24, 2007, 06:45:10 PM »
Put me in the group that has read Golf in the Kingdom more than once, twice actually. The first two thirds of the book is an easy read. The last third or so is a bit much for me.

The first time I read the book was in the mid 90s prior to my first trip to Ireland which I went solo. I went not knowing what to expect and I was struck by the warmth of the few members that I met at Ballybunion. Although no one wore a blue sweater that seemed to glow. After my trip I could relate to Michael's story and his experiences at the golf course, subsequent dinner party, and the night of drinking. So I went back and read the book again.

A links course at night can be an eerie or maybe even a supernatural place especially after a wild whiskey ride like Michael had in the book.

It's been a long time since I've picked up the book but I can remember the story lines.

Bill Shamleffer

Re:Golf in the Kingdom-A different View
« Reply #92 on: October 24, 2007, 07:05:03 PM »
Add me to another that is a big fan of Golf in the Kingdom.  I knew nothing about the book when I picked it up in 1983 and gave-up on it after about 20 pages.  I pulled it off my bookshelf again in 1984 and loved it right away and read it straight through in a few days.

I like the story very much, but especially the cast of characters.  The dinner when the hosts and guests have a full evening discussing golf was my favorite part.  I even like the third part of the book, with the notebook sections.

I still think the section on why golf should be a walking game is one of the great defenses against carts in golf.

Of course I did not take the book serious.  It is a fun read, but a good read.  The dinner guest and their discussions about golf make me think of some of the discussions on this site.

After I read this book I shared it with some of the people I caddied for, and quite a few of them enjoyed it enough to pass it on to still others.

I think my tastes of modern American fiction are pretty standard.  Some of my favorite reads are:
Huck Finn
To Kill a Mockingbird
In Cold Blood
Breakfast at Tiffany’s
One Flew of the Cuckoo's Nest
Fanny and Zooey
The Universal Baseball Association, Inc., J. Henry Waugh, Proprietor
The Right Stuff

I also like all of the golf writings by Darwin, Wind, Charles Price, Lorne Rubenstein, and Peter Dobereiner

On the humor side I like the writings of Wodehouse, Dan Jenkins, Woody Allen, and Fran Liebowitz

I only list the above as a rough guide to my overall tastes in books and as an example that my tastes are not generally way out there, but are fairly standard.

I am not surprised that some do not like this book.  I did not like The Great Gatsby.  Now even though I did not like Gatsby, I realize that it is a much better book then Golf in the Kingdom.  But for some personal reason, Gatsby just did not click for me.  No book can win over every reader, and some books may find quite a few detractors.  But Golf in the Kingdom is not just silliness.  It just requires one who is willing to have certain cockeyed outlook at the world and is willing to take a ride on Michael's little journey.  For those readers who enjoy the offbeat approach of Mr. Murphy, I think Golf in the Kingdom offers some good writing with this little escape of a read.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2007, 08:07:33 PM by Bill Shamleffer »
“The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.”  Damon Runyon

Andy Troeger

Re:Golf in the Kingdom-A different View
« Reply #93 on: October 24, 2007, 07:32:46 PM »
As I said in that other thread, I read half of it -- and quit, never tempted to return.

Call me a heretic!

Dan,
You made it further than I did. I read to page 72, and the bookmark is still in the book in case I ever am tempted again. Granted, I'd have to start over anyway, its been a few years since I tried the first time.

PThomas

Re:Golf in the Kingdom-A different View
« Reply #94 on: October 24, 2007, 08:29:48 PM »
I'm with you on this one Sir Bob
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Will E

Re:Golf in the Kingdom-A different View
« Reply #95 on: October 24, 2007, 08:33:27 PM »
I'm really happy to see Fred Shoemaker getting some notice here.   Creation of awareness is a noble profession.

Extraordinary Golf is book that has had a wonderful impact on my life.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Golf in the Kingdom-A different View
« Reply #96 on: October 24, 2007, 09:25:13 PM »
Any book that makes you look at golf in a slightly different, more natural and less mechanical way is a good thing in my opinion.

C'mon guys...think about it.

You have this tiny pellet, lying on the ground.    You take an elongated stick and swing it, making contact with the little ball, thereby hurling it into the air, against the elements and vagaries of nature, travelling across the span of multiple football fields towards a protected target.

The fact we can do it with even the slightest degree of proficiency....in 2, 3, 4 shots to a hole the size of the rim of a coke can across a hostile terrain...and sometimes even with great ease and finesse...suggests to me that there is way more than the physical at play here.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2007, 09:38:11 PM by MPCirba »

Tom Dunne

Re:Golf in the Kingdom-A different View
« Reply #97 on: October 24, 2007, 09:28:54 PM »
GITK starts off as a piece of narrative fiction and it's not a half-bad story, either. The problem is that the reader feels not only let down but betrayed when it abandons that form and spins off into the ether. Not to say it comes as much of a surprise, given the mystical underpinnings, but it violates the basic understanding that a story will have a beginning, middle and end. Any text, film, piece of music, that takes on this form (or, perhaps, lack of form) is going to have its detractors.

I happen to appreciate--not like, much less love--GITK. I think it's a very flawed book that was written in the searching spirit of the time. I realize that the '60s hangover curdled into cynical exploitation of people's spiritual fragility, that a lot of snake oil was sold (not that this was unique in American history--look at the revival tent boom of the 1830s and '40s), and that certain remnants of that era have a very distinct, unctuous tone that has not aged well.

While George is probably right that it has compelled a lot of golf stories to slather on the woo-woo, that suggests to me that people really do believe that golf has its spiritual, even mystical, facets, and that maybe someone can take us a little farther than Murphy did. I don't think that's a bad thing.

A related anecdote: Last spring, I arranged to play a fourball at Lahinch with a group of Benedictine monks. These guys were the real deal--chanters, meditators, services five times a day, living in a romantic castle cloister far from the fallen world. I thought for sure I'd get a GITK moment out of this, I'd find out how people who really think about this stuff might connect golf with the human spirit.

Turns out the monks were typical Irish golfers--total trash-talkers and grind-you-down single-digit players. The Benedictines are really into beauty and harmony with nature, but I was not going to get ANY of that. On the Dell hole, I missed about a 5-footer for par to halve the hole. So, we hit our drives on the next hole, and I'm walking down the fairway with the monk I'd arranged the game with, Brother Simon, who was on the opposing side in this match. He stops and sets his bag down and says, in his spaced-out uber-mellow monk-voice, "You've had a long drive today. Are ya hungry, Tom?"

He produces two bananas from his golf bag. One is the platonic IDEAL of a banana, the other looks like it's been in the side pocket since the Reagan Administration. The entire skin is black and nasty. He looks at the two bananas, one in each hand, and offers me the OLD ONE!

I take the banana and peel it, and the inside contents are basically LIQUID, like soft-serve on a 100 degree day. Half of it slops right onto the turf at my feet. Then he gives me this beatific smile, such a perfectly exaggerated piss-take, and heads off toward his ball, miles out there down the centerline, while I look for my crapulous slice in the rough.

I think Golf in the Kingdom helped me appreciate that moment.  ;D

Mike_Cirba

Re:Golf in the Kingdom-A different View
« Reply #98 on: October 24, 2007, 09:33:01 PM »
and let's not forget our recent US guest...the Dali Llama....

Big hitter, so it's said.

Richard Boult

Re:Golf in the Kingdom-A different View
« Reply #99 on: October 24, 2007, 09:57:40 PM »
I have highlighted every important principle, concept and quotation in the book.  They are the reason I don't play for score anymore.

I think it's important to differentiate, "not playing for score" and "not keeping score".

BTW, Steve Cohen, the founder of the SIS, told me at Bandon that the course in the novel is the "Old Course".

Tags: