Redan Pics

[Bill Brightly]

I am trying to learn how to post pictures here. Hope this works. This is the Redan at Hackensack GC (Banks)



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[Tom Yost]

The middle two pics were missing a bracket.

[Bill Brightly]

Thanks, Jim!

For those who care, the yellow ropes were up last year because we removed the heavy rough that had been allowed to grow on the kick mound, and re-sodded with fairway, and we added a collection area beyond the green.

And we also removed about 80 white pines that had been planted in the 60's on BOTH sides of the hole, creating a shoot effect off the tee. We took them all out, and opened the hole up to the breeze that comes in off the pond.

A Redan brough back to life!

[Andrew Summerell]

Bill,

Thanks for the photos. It's good to see some other Redans.


Now, have you got any Redan photos taken from 266y out.

[Bill Brightly]

Nope. its 196 from the tips, but when we restore our Biarritz and add a new black tee, it can play 250, which should make George Bahto happy!

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I love the Redan at National but who doesn't. I found Piping Rock to be stunning as well.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Bill,

Great post. Mr. Banks sure could build some great holes. That is one good looking Redan.

Anthony

[Bill Brightly]

I love the Redan at National but who doesn't. I found Piping Rock to be stunning as well.

What is amazing is that I played this hole for 30 years, knew it was  a Redan, but never knew about its link to National, Piping Rock, Macdonald and Raynor!

As an aside, we are just discovering information that while our course was certainly built by Banks in 1926 and 1927, the course may have been routed by Raynor  before he died in '26.

We found a "Charles Banks concept drawing"dated 1925. Hmmm, wasn't Banks working for Raynor in 1925? Do you think "Steamshovel" might have put his name on Raynor's routing after the boss died?

[Joe Hancock]

Not to bring into question the pictures of this particular discussion, but how often do the Redans of the world play as intended, per irrigation and maintenance?

Joe

[Bill Brightly]

Joe,

Excellent question. I think our hole plays as close to the original design as you can get. The biggest problem is that I can hit a  4 or 5 iron from the middle tees, and while the ball will roll out much more than any green on our course, today's equipment does defeat the design a bit.  So I do not have to bounce it on the green, I have to aim about 5 yards right of the pin.

But for a very large percentage of our membership, those hitting woods and rescue clubs, their play is to aim it at the kick mound and bounce it on. It is really pretty cool to watch these shots, you are never quite sure if they will make it on, and if they do, if they will roll too far.

You probably can't tell from these pictures, but there is a spine in the green that runs parallel to the redan bunker, and when the pin is short of the spine it is an EXTREMELY tough shot. If you are on the wrong side of the spine, birdie is off the table and any two putt is a great result.


I can tell you that we just installed TDI green drainage on this green. Ever see this process? Like open heart surgery for a green! The pace of the green is considerably faster now that the superintendent can get just the right amount of water on it.

So yes, today's aerial game defeats the design a bit, but it is still and extremely challenging and fun golf hole, easily our 1st or 2nd best hole. (Some like our Road Hole better.)

[TEPaul]

Tiger:

In my opinion, the Redan at Piping may even be a tad better (for some interesting reasons) than NGLA's, even though it sort of seems hard to say that.

But the thing that NGLA's redan has over Piping',s and in spades, is its over-all setting certainly including its awesome backdrop compared to Piping's.

[Phil Benedict]

I've played played Whippoorwill often and recently played Essex County, both of which I thought were great.  But they don't blow me away like Yale or Fox Chapel, the best Raynors I've played.

Was Banks Raynor Lite or am I being unfair?

[Bill Brightly]

I dont think Banks was "Raynor Light." I think his designs were every bit as bold as Raynor's. Forsgate in New Jersey still has the really deep bunkers, but many other courses have been dramatically altered.

Yale's property is what makes it so dramatic, but Banks built the same model holes and green complexes. I have not played Fox Chapel, just seen pictures, but I lived in Pittsburgh for 4 years and know that the terrain there is extremely hilly, so I'm sure that adds to the drama of that course.

I know that our course was dramatically altered over the years: many bunkers were removed in the 40's (financial reasons) and the 60's (Gordon), remaining bunker floors raised, and other changes. I think this has happened to many other Banks courses as people tried to "modernize" his courses...

So in summary, I think Raynor got some better pieces of property to work with. He was the name, and of course, had all of the referrals from people who really wanted to hire Macdonald. When Raynor died, Banks had to take over the business and keep whatever contracts that he could. Raynor (and Macdonald) could probably be much more selective than Banks, but I think Banks built courses just the way he learned from Raynor.

[Phil Benedict]

Yale and Fox Chapel are dramatic properties, but so is Whippoorwill.  I wasn't blown away by the Old White at the Greenbriar, another CBM/Raynor course I've played on a pretty flat site.

Aside from the property, the Raynor greens at Yale and Fox Chapel are much larger than what I've seen at Banks courses, which is admittedly a small sample (Whipp, Essex County and Castle Harbour).  One of the funiest things I've ever seen on a golf course was my brother hitting his second on the first at Yale way right, then finding out it was on the green but at least 100 feet away.  He didn't think it was very funny after he four putted!

Maybe it's just the way they've maintained the greens at Yale and Fox Chapel.  Just to reiterate I think Whipp and Essex County are fabulous.  

[Bill Brightly]

In terms of green sizes, I can only speak about Hackensack, but ours were sigificantly reduced in size over the years.

Can you guess where it started? AWT visited our course in 1936 and suggested that we reduce green sizes on about 12 holes...I hear that the Gordons did the same in the 60's.

But we have been reclaiming portions of "lost greens" for the past 4 years, gradually bringing these areas back to putting surfaces. It is actually really fun to watch the architect and superintendent study the contour and figure out where the green used to exist.

My theory is that people were much more reluctant to touch a Raynor course, but not so with a Banks course. Banks was an English teacher when he was hired by Raynor, and he only worked for him for two or three years before Raynor died. What else did Banks have to work with except the model holes that Raynor used? So I think he plotted those model holes at every course he built, just like Raynor did. Remember, the clients probably hired Raynor anyway, so Banks was not about to reinvent the wheel. If anything, I think Banks' bunkering plans were more dramatic. The question is, what was he allowed to build, and how much was altered (softened) by modernization over the years?