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Patrick_Mucci

Is today's golfing public so obtuse that
« on: October 21, 2007, 10:05:58 PM »
everything must be clearly layed out for them ..... visually ?

Does that account for the propensity toward elevated tees that provide unobstructed views of the entirety of the DZ ?

The bias against blindness ?

The quest to eliminate quirk ?

Mike_Cirba

Re:Is today's golfing public so obtuse that
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2007, 10:12:20 PM »
Patrick,

One would hope differently, but alas, that's largely true.

Thankfully, there is still a core minority who love classic, adventurous, non-formulaic golf and that's reflected in a handful of modern architects, as well as the preservation/restoration efforts at some of the old-line clubs.

I've finally become convinced (and emotionally accepted) that we'll never be a majority, but that's mostly ok.

I just wish the USGA was more on our side than they seem to be at times.

jeffwarne

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Re:Is today's golfing public so obtuse that
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2007, 10:20:25 PM »
If Tiger Woods wants it "all out in front of you",(i.e. no blindness or quirk)
and Rees is the "Open Doctor"(aka tee elevator),
and Fazio is the Augusta consultant,
and most Tour player and commentators voice such opinions and make comments about "tough but fair"


Is it any wonder the golfing public holds such views?

I was at a charity auction last night and pointed out to a guy that a certain excellent fun, quirky, strategic private course 4some was priced well below the market and comparably to local public golf courses he routinely pays for.
His response "I wouldn't play there on a bet-it's gimmicky"
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

David_Tepper

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Re:Is today's golfing public so obtuse that
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2007, 10:29:05 PM »
Jeff W. -

The "it's all out there in front of you" mantra certainly did not start with Tiger. Jack Nicklaus prays at the same alter.  

It is one reason Muirfield is so popular ("tough, but fair") as a British Open venue among the players.

Nicklaus is also a big believer in elevated tees. My guess is he would lay out a course that had all 18 holes playing downhill if he could.

Blame the steamshovel! ;)

DT

Powell Arms

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Re:Is today's golfing public so obtuse that
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2007, 10:36:08 PM »
I belive the answer is yes, the overwhelming majority of today's golfers need everything laid out in front of them.  The common belief is hidden bunkers are unfair, boudly so if they are not guarded by rough (allowing shots to roll into them), and greens that don't hold shots that can not be fired at flags are unfair.

I'd be interested to hear thoughts on what this means for architecture.  I think any endeavor that requires the time and money necessary to develop a course must consider it's appeal to the broadest market possible.  That is to say that I think it would be very difficult to allow a quirky or innovative or "classic" design to be implemented, simply because it won't appeal to the overwhelming majority and therefore will increase the risk of financial failure.   I tend to think the this desire to have courses that are "all in front of you" is the norm across all specturms of golfers.  That is to say that those that among avid, not avid, public course players, private course members, etc, the percentage of those that prefers this style is pretty constant.  

(On another thread I had made a comment that indicated an assumption that private club members would prefer classic architecture to a greater extent than public course players.  It received little comment, but I have tought about it a great deal, and believe that it was a bad assumption on my part.)
PowellArms@gmail.com
@PWArms

igrowgrass

Re:Is today's golfing public so obtuse that
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2007, 10:40:53 PM »
everything must be clearly layed out for them ..... visually ?

Does that account for the propensity toward elevated tees that provide unobstructed views of the entirety of the DZ ?

The bias against blindness ?

The quest to eliminate quirk ?

Isn't that just an extension of society?  
But how much blind is too much in golf?  

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is today's golfing public so obtuse that
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2007, 12:15:09 AM »
Jeff W. -

The "it's all out there in front of you" mantra certainly did not start with Tiger. Jack Nicklaus prays at the same alter.  

It is one reason Muirfield is so popular ("tough, but fair") as a British Open venue among the players.

Nicklaus is also a big believer in elevated tees. My guess is he would lay out a course that had all 18 holes playing downhill if he could.

Blame the steamshovel! ;)

DT


That dream of 18 holes all downhill may be realized if the worst scenarios of global warming come to pass.

Think of all the ski slopes that will no longer have snow in the winter, but have lifts, luxury accomodation and plenty of interesting downhill terrain ;)
My hovercraft is full of eels.

TEPaul

Re:Is today's golfing public so obtuse that
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2007, 12:15:38 AM »
Patrick:

Do you think the time will ever come when you stop calling most all golfers obtuse and all memberships complete idiots?  ;)

Jim_Kennedy

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Re:Is today's golfing public so obtuse that
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2007, 01:32:09 AM »
Pat,
No, I wouldn't. I can't tell you how many times, after a second or third go-round, that our little Raynor course has mades 'converts' out of those who can't quite wrap themselves around it, or have given it a negative review, after one play. We have a blind shot or two, about half downhill and half uphill tee shots and approaches, terrain that can bounce the ball in your favor or not, quirky greens with spines and segments, and just about everything the modern golfer is supposed to dislike.

Personally, I really believe that once players understand the context they readily accept the presentation.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is today's golfing public so obtuse that
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2007, 01:36:05 AM »
Jim,

I agree, converts can be made, but I think there is a whole lot of convert'in to do.

TEPaul,
Why not try answering the question?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Is today's golfing public so obtuse that
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2007, 07:04:33 AM »
One of the main problems about the public's understanding of golf architecture is simply that people like to speak in broad principles instead of talking about holes they found interesting.

Americans always want everything to be "ideal".  The Scots have no problem accepting things the way they are.

JESII

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Re:Is today's golfing public so obtuse that
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2007, 07:09:44 AM »
One of the main problems about the public's understanding of golf architecture is simply that people like to speak in broad principles instead of talking about holes they found interesting.

Americans always want everything to be "ideal".  The Scots have no problem accepting things the way they are.


That's a pretty broad principle, isn't it Tom? Aren't you lucky you found a spot with some American's that don't quite fit that mold...

On a serious note...what are your greatest obstacles between appealing to the critical golfer and the "ordinary" golfer?

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is today's golfing public so obtuse that
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2007, 07:43:26 AM »
Just look at the preponderance of new courses all over Europe that are being built in the "American Ideal Style" that Tom just mentioned, with very few exceptions.

I think the courses of old were 'laid out' to fit the site, with minimum disturbance....which was part of the challenge, while keeping costs low in the process.

Nowadays courses are more often 'built' to fit the site.
Big difference.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2007, 12:11:22 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is today's golfing public so obtuse that
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2007, 08:12:40 AM »
I agree with those who think the quest away from blindness is nothing new. Look at the writings of Ross, etc.  Now, they missed it every so often because of construction technology, but they sought to have visibility. I have seen Ross field notes that read "Lower green for visibility."  Wasn't the typical Ross hole a down and up off an elevated tee? (Where topography allowed) How may blind holes did MacKenzie, Thomas, or Tillie do, percentage wise? Other than the Alps approach, how many blind shots are there at NGLA?

Even if we are going to bash modern guys, how many blind holes does CC or Doak have % wise?  Didn't TD write here that he wasn't really a fan of blind holes?

As Tom Doak said on the "Openings" thread, I think this thread would be better served if we stuck to the facts, rather than some revisionist history concerning the blind hole, to make it look like a conspiracy by RTJ and post WW II gca's that this group as a rule doesn't care for.

I think the myth that blindness was favored in the Golden Age is second only to the myth that they were designing for the ground game back then. ;D (but seriously)

But I do like Pat's conversation starters.......



Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike_Cirba

Re:Is today's golfing public so obtuse that
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2007, 08:19:31 AM »
Jeff,

I think Patrick's question is a bit broader than just total blindness, or maybe I'm reading more into it.

Yesterday, playing at a Tillinghast course, there were two times when I was within 15 feet of the hole where I had to aim my putt greater than 45 degrees away from the hole.  

I can't imagine many modern architects building greens that severe and that's a shame...it was an absolute blast.

TEPaul

Re:Is today's golfing public so obtuse that
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2007, 09:27:13 AM »
TEPaul,
Why not try answering the question?

Tony:

OK

“Is today's golfing public so obtuse that everything must be clearly layed out for them ..... visually ?”

First of all, I don’t know who Patrick is referring to when he names ‘today’s golfing public”. Who does he think that is---all golfers, most golfers, some golfers? It’s pretty hard to answer the question without knowing what he means by that.

”Does that account for the propensity toward elevated tees that provide unobstructed views of the entirety of the DZ ?”

Probably, but I wonder if the propensity to provide unobstructed views of things is driven more by architects worried about what some golfers think than by what many golfers actually do think. And I can tell you this about my own feeling about some instances of blindness. I almost never like it when some architect adds length to some old hole and as a consequent the new tees are so far back one can no longer see over the front of the old tee. I think that tends to change the feel of the way the old hole was designed and I generally don't like that.

”The bias against blindness?”

In my opinion, some don’t like blindness and others don’t mind it. What bothers me is when well known architects like Tom Fazio mention publicly that they KNOW that golfers today don’t like something like blindness and that if some of those ODGs had the resources he has they never would've done it or used blindness. How does he know what all or most golfers like and don’t like? How about holes like NGLA’s #2 or 3 or 11 or 16? They have significant degrees of blindness. Do most of the golfers who play those holes hate blindness? If they do I have certainly totally missed the fact that they do over the last ten years. Some of them seem to love it.

”The quest to eliminate quirk?”

I guess that depends on what's meant by quirk.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2007, 09:30:33 AM by TEPaul »

Bill_McBride

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Re:Is today's golfing public so obtuse that
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2007, 09:31:34 AM »
Jeff W. -

The "it's all out there in front of you" mantra certainly did not start with Tiger. Jack Nicklaus prays at the same alter.  

It is one reason Muirfield is so popular ("tough, but fair") as a British Open venue among the players.

Nicklaus is also a big believer in elevated tees. My guess is he would lay out a course that had all 18 holes playing downhill if he could.

Blame the steamshovel! ;)

DT

Not to mention the golf cart!

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is today's golfing public so obtuse that
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2007, 09:50:12 AM »
Mike,
Tillinghast didn't build that green so that you'd have to aim 45 degrees or more on your 15 foot putts.
Modern green speeds created that.

I love boldly contoured greens with a lot of slope, but let's not lose sight of the fact that they (can) play way differently now than when ODG's designed them
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is today's golfing public so obtuse that
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2007, 09:55:01 AM »
Mayor Daley has been visiting and he was treated to meeting the gentleman who uttered those immortal words "Sand Hills is boring". Well, the Mayor asked this guy what was his definition of a great golf hole. The answer...wait for it... a little longer... ok, he said, "Tree lined, straight, so I can hit a draw or a fade". ;D
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is today's golfing public so obtuse that
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2007, 10:07:18 AM »
Jeff,

I think Patrick's question is a bit broader than just total blindness, or maybe I'm reading more into it.

Yesterday, playing at a Tillinghast course, there were two times when I was within 15 feet of the hole where I had to aim my putt greater than 45 degrees away from the hole.  

I can't imagine many modern architects building greens that severe and that's a shame...it was an absolute blast.

With his follow up questions on elevated tees, I wasn't thinking green contours, etc. As always, I could be wrong.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike Benham

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Re:Is today's golfing public so obtuse that
« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2007, 10:27:56 AM »
everything must be clearly layed out for them ..... visually ?

Does that account for the propensity toward elevated tees that provide unobstructed views of the entirety of the DZ ?

The bias against blindness ?

The quest to eliminate quirk ?


This is a question that should be answered by the GCAs, not the golfing public.  

Does the owner of the project give the GCAs direction that they want a course has elevated tees, no blind shots, no quirk?

Do GCAs enlist focus groups to get feedback on their past designs, the designs of others or what the golfing public wants?



"... and I liked the guy ..."

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Is today's golfing public so obtuse that
« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2007, 11:00:13 AM »
Jim Kennedy,

If your wonderful Raynor course made them converts AFTER TWO OR THREE plays, they MUST have been OBTUSE prior to their first play  ;D

What you're refering to is exposure AND education.

That doesn't always come easy.

Tom Doak,

There's no question that micro analysis, down to feature and hole details makes for the most informed and productive discussion.

However, the dilema with that concept is that there may only be a limited number of participants who have in depth experience and information relative to the individual feature and hole specifics.

TEPaul,

I have an inkling of a suspicion that you're begining to come around to my way of thinking  ;D  

Mike Benham,

If the owner/developer is giving the GCA directions and instructions, what does he need the GCA for ?

Jeff Brauer,

In addition to the approach to the Alps at NGLA, depending upon your position for your approach and/or your recovery, there can easily be 14 additional holes with blind shots
« Last Edit: October 22, 2007, 11:08:22 AM by Patrick_Mucci »

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is today's golfing public so obtuse that
« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2007, 11:07:14 AM »
Perhaps the typical American golfer has little exposure to blindness, or severely canted greens.  Another example is a very difficult short hole, like the 14th at Bandon Trails.  American courses are generally straightforward.  That's what we're used to.

Furthermore, you have the occasional public remark from respected champions, like Tiger or Jack, which molds public opinion.  I'd argue that great golfers dislike quirk, because it tends to even the playing field.  When Tiger says "It's all there out in front of you", people listen.

Americans, or at least Golf Digest raters, aren't completely obtuse.  At least four top ten courses (Merion, Oakmont, Crystal Downs, NGLA) have blind or unusual shots.

Here in Oregon, most of the better players I know here have a pretty narrow perspective on what constitutes good golf.  They are so accustomed to the narrow, tree-lined courses here, with small, tilted disk greens.  Shape your drive, and throw your dart in there.  The introduction of Bandon Dunes, as well as greater access of information about golf through the Internet, is slowly changing that perspective.

Do you really like blind shots?  A few are good; they test the golfer's ability to aim using other landmarks, and then trust himself.  Then if the shot is well executed, a hopeful and anxious walk to see the result ensues.  But in general, I like to watch.

To summarize, I say not obtuse, just uneducated about some of the game's subtleties.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2007, 11:08:03 AM by John Kirk »

Phil Benedict

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Re:Is today's golfing public so obtuse that
« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2007, 11:23:55 AM »
I know avid golfers who dislike NGLA.  I've never delved very deeply into why, but my guess is because of the blindness.  I wonder if this reflects modern golfer sensibilities and being conditioned to want to have everything in front of you, or whether NGLA has always had detractors for the same reason - blindness and quirk.  

paul cowley

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Re:Is today's golfing public so obtuse that
« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2007, 11:33:36 AM »
I find myself designing more holes that are semi blind....holes that are blind from the wrong, or non preferred side of the fairway, which can be larger in size than the preferred side.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca