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Tim_Weiman

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Re:Can a Great Golf Course in America remain "Blue Collar"?
« Reply #75 on: October 17, 2007, 10:43:17 PM »
Pat Mucci,

I haven't thought through the issue when it comes to America, but can say that your suggestion that golf has never been a blue collar game simply wasn't true for the Ballybunion community I fell in love with twenty years ago.

Unemployment ran 40-45 percent in the community and there were many members who couldn't afford the annual dues of about 200 Irish punt. But, that didn't mean they weren't welcome to play. The late Secretary Sean Walsh saw to that.
Tim Weiman

John Foley

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Re:Can a Great Golf Course in America remain "Blue Collar"?
« Reply #76 on: October 17, 2007, 10:46:05 PM »
Can a great golf course remain Blue Collar?

That assumes it was blue collar to start with.

Bandon never was. I'd say most resorts never we're and many, if not most of the daily fee's we visit never we're, especially in the metro area's.

The true blue collars are the muni's. And how many of them are great? Truely great?

I thought so.

The other part of this discussion is affordability. This sub $100 green fee is sooo rediculous to a huge percentage of the golfing population. I'd say the real true number is sub $50 evn sub $40!!!

Find out how many golfers would pay greater than $50 for a round more than once or twice a year and you'd be amazed. We for the most part travel in circles that the golfing public are amazed exists. Many of my neighbors would thionk a trip to Myrtle Beach is the Holy Grail and would consider almost no where else to go on a guys golfing trip. Kiawaha where's that. Bandon?? No chance in hell.

I'm heading back to the RTJ Trail Sat for 7 rounds of golf over 4 days for $280 TOTAL (not including airfare & hotels, food & beverage). Unlimited fall golf, Tuesdays are free. It is an unbelievable value. Are the courses better at Bandon? yup.

Are they a better value?? Don't think so.

We've talked about heading to Bandon, but for the group I go with it's priced out of half the guys. They all are white collar family guys who value the time w/ friends and not so much of the architecture.

« Last Edit: October 17, 2007, 10:48:11 PM by john_foley »
Integrity in the moment of choice

Gib_Papazian

Re:Can a Great Golf Course in America remain "Blue Collar"?
« Reply #77 on: October 18, 2007, 01:14:03 AM »
The entire concept of trying to stratify golf courses "dollar value" based on a particular number is part and parcel of the same insanity endemic to idiots inside the Beltway writing laws based upon "median national incomes."

I am sure that *Grits and Momma's Ham Hocks National Golf Links" in Sugar Ditch, Mississippi is a great value. Maybe Tom Doak or Fazio or Jim Engh or some unknown genius lovingly crafted it and the community fathers have decided that "dag nambit, we gonna have the finest course in the South this side of Augusta."

This is the same lunacy of trying to compare the value of a golf course in Tazmania with anything else. Since sheep and Tazmanian Devils are given the right to vote down there, green fees are irrelevant.

If we are to make a correct "apples to apples" comparison, we need to factor in the average income of area families for all these "great values."

Throw out Sand Hills, Bandon and the rest of their "designer bigshot" ilk. Those are destination resorts, in and of themselves and occupy a different category.

Eagle Point outside Medford, Oregon is delicious - particularly at $50 on weekends at high season.

Yet, a family income in Medford of 100K entitles you to live like Mr. Big Shot.

Where I come from, that gets you an open sewer shit house and a local school where even the teachers have tattoos.

The answer to the question is: "Yes." It just depends on where you are.  

 

« Last Edit: October 18, 2007, 01:16:11 AM by Gib Papazian »

John Kirk

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Re:Can a Great Golf Course in America remain "Blue Collar"?
« Reply #78 on: October 18, 2007, 01:23:47 AM »
Patrick Mucci,

I like that post a lot, big fella.  Very comprehensive and thoughtful.

TEPaul

Re:Can a Great Golf Course in America remain "Blue Collar"?
« Reply #79 on: October 18, 2007, 01:37:22 AM »
"Can a Great Golf Course in America remain "Blue Collar"?"

I'm sure it can. I'm sure a lot of very fine courses in America can remain "Blue Collar" and affordable if these ridiculous magazine ranking lists would cease to exist. Ditching the word "GREAT" would probably help too!  ;)
« Last Edit: October 18, 2007, 01:39:57 AM by TEPaul »

Gary Daughters

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Re:Can a Great Golf Course in America remain "Blue Collar"?
« Reply #80 on: October 18, 2007, 09:47:10 AM »
Pat Mucci finally nailed it.  Sort of.  

When exactly were "Great Courses" built for blue collar golfers?  In America.

But let's get our terms and parameters straight.  "Blue collar" has more to do with a set of attitudes than an economic station;  most of the guys I play golf with wear white collars to work and pull down salaries about equal to or even less than that of, say, a veteran machinist at Lockheed or a good re-modeler, etc.

My guys have an average of 2 kids and a mortgage.  They don't pay $100 to play golf and if they decide they'll spring for $65 then they don't take the family out to dinner that week.
They make distinctions among the courses they play, but the "Great" moniker doesn't exactly move their meters.  It  might be different were it not such a reach economically.

That's a long-winded way of saying they're 99% of the U.S. golfing universe.

So the question.. "Can a Great Golf Course in America remain "Blue Collar"? is really puzzling to me, especially coming from TD.  I gotta be missing something.

Having said that, I'm still waiting for a modified minimalism (sounds awful, I know.. find a marketable term for me) that would result in reduced construction and maintenance costs with the goal of (making money and) introducing more golfers to a traditional, exciting and pleasurable golf aesthetic.  Who the hell cares about the clubhouse?

Tom, Jerry, Paul.. you guys build us that Great Course and then we'll see if it can remain Blue Collar.   Please put it in Georgia.  
« Last Edit: October 18, 2007, 04:41:20 PM by Gary Daughters »
THE NEXT SEVEN:  Alfred E. Tupp Holmes Municipal Golf Course, Willi Plett's Sportspark and Driving Range, Peachtree, Par 56, Browns Mill, Cross Creek, Piedmont Driving Club

Adam Clayman

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Re:Can a Great Golf Course in America remain "Blue Collar"?
« Reply #81 on: October 18, 2007, 09:48:36 AM »


I love Wild Horse, but, as I understand it, it's owned by a government or government agency and may enjoy the benefit of being the beneficiary of a taxing authority which would allow it to remain financially viable in uncertain times.




Dick Youngscap happened to build his dream on land that some regard as the best land for golf in America.  And, while the land is relatively inexpensive, he had to buy thousands of acres in order to get what he wanted, and even then, he had to buy additional acreage to get the finished product that C&C wanted.

 

Both of these statement are not factually correct.

WH is a corporation and DY did not have to buy extra land because Bill Coore crossed a barb wire fence.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Ben Cowan-Dewar

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Re:Can a Great Golf Course in America remain "Blue Collar"?
« Reply #82 on: October 18, 2007, 10:23:56 AM »
The best of the ones listed, such as Highlands Links (although it's in Canada), remain relatively inexpensive because of remoteness and often because of maintenance/management issues.  If they'd get their act straightened out and fix that stuff, they'd probably also raise their prices.  The same was true of Bethpage when I was in high school.

Tom,
I do not know if you have been there in 20 years, but much has changed. First of all, the green fee is $102 US, so i am not sure it qualifies any longer for this discussion.

The maintenance of the course is somewhat handicapped by the reluctance to clear trees within the national park. However, they did clear trees behind the ninth green this year to open up air flow and the results were tremendous, here is to hoping that it continues.

Highlands was in very good shape this year on each visit I made.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2007, 10:39:35 AM by Ben_Dewar »

Phil_the_Author

Re:Can a Great Golf Course in America remain "Blue Collar"?
« Reply #83 on: October 18, 2007, 10:37:26 AM »
When Tom Doak started this thread he mentioned the one club that was begun as a "Blue Collar" golf club and despite higher prices today that are pushing affordability for some, has and will always remain the premiere "Blue Collar" golf club - Bethpage and the Black.

It was opened and proclaimed by Robert Moses to be the "People's Country Club" and since that day it is the home of every public golfer in New York and beyond.

A day spent walking around and sitting in the clubhouse listening to people talk would convince any and all that it is
Blue Collar."

 

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re:Can a Great Golf Course in America remain "Blue Collar"?
« Reply #84 on: October 18, 2007, 10:39:40 AM »
Phil,

I've seen a lot of heavy German metal in the parking lot at Bethpage. Is there a new definition of "blue collar?"

Steve

"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Phil_the_Author

Re:Can a Great Golf Course in America remain "Blue Collar"?
« Reply #85 on: October 18, 2007, 10:41:06 AM »
Yet the vast preponderance of autos parked there are more similar to my 1994 Ford Taurus.  ;D

Kyle Harris

Re:Can a Great Golf Course in America remain "Blue Collar"?
« Reply #86 on: October 18, 2007, 10:42:39 AM »
I spent my first night in the overnight lot at Bethpage in 1994 Ford Taurus.

Phil_the_Author

Re:Can a Great Golf Course in America remain "Blue Collar"?
« Reply #87 on: October 18, 2007, 01:12:56 PM »
Kyle,

That just proves the truth in the old maxim that great minds think & drive alike!

paul cowley

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Re:Can a Great Golf Course in America remain "Blue Collar"?
« Reply #88 on: October 18, 2007, 01:16:59 PM »
Here I am being a hornblower, but I have built one that qualifies for this discussion....Orchard Creek, in upstate NY.

GDigests best new affordable 5 yrs ago...still doing well and making money...they added an outdoor event pavilion this year.....Greens fees $40/with cart on weekends, less during the week or for league play.
They don't care what color collar you wear as long as you don't wear blue jeans.

It helps to make money with only a 1.8mil dollar construction budget....which included the 2400 sg' clubhouse, which also houses a very popular restaurant....I designed the clubhouse for free.
 
« Last Edit: October 18, 2007, 01:43:20 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Jerry Lemons

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Re:Can a Great Golf Course in America remain "Blue Collar"?
« Reply #89 on: October 18, 2007, 01:29:34 PM »
Paul- thats an attaboy!
Glad to see others of us building low budget courses for the rest of the world to play.

All my courses were built under 2 mil. Some right at 1!
Is can be done and it is nice to see they can get a little fame along the way.

Jerry
Times flys and your the pilot !

Jerry Lemons

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Re:Can a Great Golf Course in America remain "Blue Collar"?
« Reply #90 on: October 18, 2007, 01:32:21 PM »
, I'm still waiting for a modified minimalism (sounds awful, I know.. find a marketable term for me) that would result in reduced construction and maintenance costs with the goal of (making money and) introducing more golfers to a traditional, exciting and pleasurable golf aesthetic.  Who the hell cares about the clubhouse?


Yes Gary but these type course seldom are what a client wants to build, unless they have no ego and care about profit ;) ;)
Times flys and your the pilot !

paul cowley

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Re:Can a Great Golf Course in America remain "Blue Collar"?
« Reply #91 on: October 18, 2007, 01:40:53 PM »
Paul- thats an attaboy!
Glad to see others of us building low budget courses for the rest of the world to play.

All my courses were built under 2 mil. Some right at 1!
Is can be done and it is nice to see they can get a little fame along the way.

Jerry


Thanks Jerry....at least we both know it can be done, although I just realized I might have to pull my previous post as it all depends on what ones meaning of 'great' is [see thread heading]........ :-[..... :)
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Bill Shamleffer

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Re:Can a Great Golf Course in America remain "Blue Collar"?
« Reply #92 on: October 18, 2007, 01:43:23 PM »
Lastly, Golf has NEVER been a blue collar game.
Horseshoes, darts, cards and bar shuffleboard are blue collar games.

This depends on one’s definition of "blue collar."

I do not know if the coal miners of Scotland 150 years ago were playing much golf.  But we do know the caddies and the tradesmen were playing golf.  These men had limited education and knew that they were of a different social set than the "Gentlemen of the R and A".  The clubs these men belonged to would have been similar to our current Legion Halls.

Were the men of the 1950s and 1960s working on the lines at the auto factories or the breweries "blue collar"?  I think any industrial union job would classify as 'blue collar".  These men would not have thought of having a golf trip to Scotland, but they could afford to spend a bit extra for their recreation.

The American model rarely offers the affordable private golf club.  When these do exist they more often are found in rural areas.  But the UK model does offer affordable private clubs.  In some instance the course is private, but will offer some outside play.  In other instances the course is public, but there may be "clubs" with preferred times.  And these clubs may span the price range from expensive to affordable.

But there is quite a bit of blue collar golf in the US, but under the US model it has been left almost exclusively to public golf courses.

I would not be surprised if the percentage of "white collar" workers playing golf may be higher than "blue collar".  But the difference may not be as wide as one may suspect and the number of "blue collar" golfers is not insignificant.

Cog Hill was in the past (like Bethpage) a wonderful "blue collar" course.  But with the Western Open came the high rates to #4.  Remember, quite of bit of these "blue collar" golfers were likely caddies in their youth, and they know good golf courses.
“The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.”  Damon Runyon

Jerry Lemons

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Re:Can a Great Golf Course in America remain "Blue Collar"?
« Reply #93 on: October 18, 2007, 01:46:20 PM »
Paul, if it was Best new 5 years ago, how can it be debated that now it is not great?
Regarless of top 100 ranking position, if a course drops from say #10 to #25, does that now make it not great?

I think not!

IMO  Once you have been blesses by those who bless as being great, you can't undo it, other than from poor care or an act of God.

Jerry
Times flys and your the pilot !

Garland Bayley

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Re:Can a Great Golf Course in America remain "Blue Collar"?
« Reply #94 on: October 18, 2007, 01:52:22 PM »
Paul, if it was Best new 5 years ago, how can it be debated that now it is not great?
Regarless of top 100 ranking position, if a course drops from say #10 to #25, does that now make it not great?

I think not!

IMO  Once you have been blesses by those who bless as being great, you can't undo it, other than from poor care or an act of God.

Jerry

I suspect few best new affordables even crack the top 250.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jerry Lemons

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Re:Can a Great Golf Course in America remain "Blue Collar"?
« Reply #95 on: October 18, 2007, 01:58:27 PM »
Paul, How high up any list does a course have to be in order to be great. If it cracked the top 250? 500? 1000?

This is where I think list have little to do with nothing.
Jerry
Times flys and your the pilot !

Jay Carstens

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Re:Can a Great Golf Course in America remain "Blue Collar"?
« Reply #96 on: October 18, 2007, 02:08:52 PM »
Our local Jr. course (9-hole, par-3) is currently offering green fees for $2 until the end of the month. It's not a "great" course but the price seems reasonable.  8)
Play the course as you find it

Jerry Kluger

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Re:Can a Great Golf Course in America remain "Blue Collar"?
« Reply #97 on: October 18, 2007, 02:21:08 PM »
It's amazing to me how many "blue collar" guys spend well over $100 per ticket and $7 per beer to go see the Redskins play and then gripe about how much golf costs.

Eric Smith

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Re:Can a Great Golf Course in America remain "Blue Collar"?
« Reply #98 on: October 18, 2007, 02:24:48 PM »

I suspect few best new affordables even crack the top 250.


Depends on the list(s). These are pretty good ones...

BLACK MESA
Golfweek 2006 Top 100 Modern Courses # 62
Golf Digest 2003 Best New Affordable Public Course

PAA-KO-RIDGE
Golfweek - Top 100 Modern Courses in America, # 23
Golf Digest 2000 Best New Affordable Public Course


REDLANDS MESA
Golf Digest 2001 Best New Affordable Public Course
Golf Digest America‘s 100 Greatest Public Golf Courses #17






Jerry Lemons

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Re:Can a Great Golf Course in America remain "Blue Collar"?
« Reply #99 on: October 18, 2007, 02:36:48 PM »

I suspect few best new affordables even crack the top 250.


Depends on the list(s). These are pretty good ones...

BLACK MESA
Golfweek 2006 Top 100 Modern Courses # 62
Golf Digest 2003 Best New Affordable Public Course

PAA-KO-RIDGE
Golfweek - Top 100 Modern Courses in America, # 23
Golf Digest 2000 Best New Affordable Public Course


REDLANDS MESA
Golf Digest 2001 Best New Affordable Public Course
Golf Digest America‘s 100 Greatest Public Golf Courses #17






Not that it really matters but affordable does relate to the current fee charged, not what the constrcution cost was/is.
Do you know what the budget was on these?

Jerry
Times flys and your the pilot !