Can a Great Golf Course in America remain "Blue Collar"?

[Garland Bayley]

...
I'd be glad to build a "Tom Doak trail" in Nebraska, but I've been assured by those in the know that if we did build it, it would lose money.  The RTJ trail in Alabama is only profitable once you write off the capital costs to an outside source as "business development," something that not too many states would consider in this economic climate.

Maybe the economic climate will change and you will be able to do this in your golden years as RTJ did.
 

[Chris Kane]

Brora - but its not in America so doesn't answer the question.

[Brent Hutto]

How much do they charge guests down at Palmetto? I'd think it would be under $100 unless it's Masters week.

[Jay Carstens]

 I'd be glad to build a "Tom Doak trail" in Nebraska, but I've been assured by those in the know that if we did build it, it would lose money.  

I'll work for free if that'll help get you out here someday.  

[John Mayhugh]

If a "great golf course" requires great conditioning, then it's an emphatic no.  But if you look at the thread about building TOC in the US, then I think the answer is yes.  

[Matt Kardash]

What's the best course in the world where the highest visitor / guest fee is less than US $100?  

I think the answer to this question is probably Highlands Links. I played there about 4 years ago and it cost about 70 bucks a round. However, back in those days, before the American dollar went to shit, it would have probably been like 50 bucks for you Americans. I'm sure there aren't many courses that could arguably be in the world top 50 that are that affordable.

[Garland Bayley]

Tom,

Do any of the courses suggested reach your threshold of greatness?
There are certainly several that surpass Old Works.

[David Stamm]

Rustic has been mentioned already several times and I'll throw my lot in for that choice. Especially for the area it's in, it's a great deal for the quality of course. Price or no price, it's one of my favs.

I would throw Soule Park in there as well. It's even cheaper than RC ($45 to walk on weekends) and is a wonderful course.
 

[Greg Murphy]

I would like to believe there is such a thing as great golf that the working stiff can afford. However, as the posts here demonstrate, very, very few courses of note have been built in the past few decades that are not either super-exclusive enclaves for the super-rich or amenities for real estate developments or resorts that are trumped up into so-called country clubs for a day.

There is so much bloat associated with the great game of golf.

The game is seen by many as an elitist, frivolous pastime pursued by corporate fat cats at exclusive clubs or vacation getaways, and for good reason. The evidence is all around—club houses worth tens of milions of dollars, ridiculously manicured grounds replete with water falls and fountains, wood-walled pro shops stocked with expensive cigars, ballrooms, executive chefs, valet bag drops with complimentary nose wiping if you've misplaced your handkerchief.

To be sure, golf in North American has always had a connection with money but I cling to the belief that it need not necessarily be ABOUT money.

Can we separate the game from the bloat?

[Andy Troeger]

The best I've played:

New Mexico:
Paa-Ko Ridge ($99...barely!)
Black Mesa
Pinon Hills (under $50 I believe still)

Indiana:
Sultan's Run
Rock Hollow
The Fort
Warren GC
(many others that I haven't played).

If Tullymore in Michigan is still under $100 (was also $99 two years ago) I would include that one, but I would guess its probably gone up.

I would put every one of those courses in the top 20% of courses I've played, some top 10%.

[Dave Bourgeois]

As to the original premise... I don't see how a great golf course in the US could remain Blue Collar.  However, I think there are plenty of good to very good golf courses in every region that will.

There is a difference between a great steak and a great steak for the money.  Great courses make lists/get press...lists draw players...owners want to make money and viola the price goes up!  Its a free market.  I had a recent conversation with a lefty poster who told me about a time when Pebble Beach was $25 to play twilight!  It sure ain't that now.

If there are courses that "could" be great if they removed 3000 trees (like Split Rock in NYC IMHO) then it really hasn't realized its greatness, and we won't know if they will stay Blue Collar.

I am happy to play good/very good courses (maybe great for the money) and take in the more interesting parts.  In my area we are getting more of these @ the Sub $100 mark (Oxford Greens, Wintonbury Hills, Richter Park for Residenst, Links at Unionvale, etc.)  True Greatness doesn't come cheap.

[Garland Bayley]

As to the original premise... I don't see how a great golf course in the US could remain Blue Collar.  However, I think there are plenty of good to very good golf courses in every region that will.
...

Wouldn't Bethpage Black have been < $100 for all if the USGA hadn't come in and caused them to mess up their fee structure?
 

[Dave Bourgeois]

Garland,

TD did mention that the USGA and NYS had something to do with the fee structure. If you are out of state I believe the fees are close to $100.  That's why I still have a NY license!  Anyway it is a good example.

I'd be interested to see where the costs will be in 2010.

[Tom_Doak]

Garland:

I'm sort of sad there haven't been more courses nominated which fit my definition of "great".

The best of the ones listed, such as Highlands Links (although it's in Canada), remain relatively inexpensive because of remoteness and often because of maintenance/management issues.  If they'd get their act straightened out and fix that stuff, they'd probably also raise their prices.  The same was true of Bethpage when I was in high school.

I do agree with Greg Murphy that many courses go wrong by building great facilities that have nothing to do with golf, and ultimately the golfers have to pay for them -- the golfers, or the bank which financed the course.

[John Mayhugh]

Maybe I overlooked it, but how did "blue collar" become a daily fee under $100?  Shouldn't it be in the $30 or less range?

[Garland Bayley]

...
Can we separate the game from the bloat?

Isn't that what we are doing? Golf is losing popularity because of the bloat. Golfers are staying away because of the bloat. More courses are closing than opening. At some time, I hope the bloat will collapse and we will go back to the game without the bloat, or I am afraid we will be left with a bloated game for the few.

See my signature line. I am sure I would be happier playing The Links of ND than any of the bloated CCFADs.

[Greg Murphy]

John,

No matter how golf pure and efficient an operation gets, I do not think it is possible for a course to be great and charge less than $30 per round. To be great you need competent and dedicated staff. They deserve a decent wage. They need decent equipment to work with, which needs to be replaced and/or upgraded on a continual basis. And the investors deserve at least a modest, single digit return on their investment. It can't be done for under $30, but might be possible for $35-40. I'm willing to bet it can be done for $50.

Greg

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brad Klein,

I love Wild Horse, but, as I understand it, it's owned by a government or government agency and may enjoy the benefit of being the beneficiary of a taxing authority which would allow it to remain financially viable in uncertain times.

Tom Doak,

In thinking about your post, I don't know if it's possible to achieve your goal of good, affordable golf on a recent design.

Costs have to be accounted for.

The cost to acquire, design, build and maintain is substantial.
Hence, even if you wanted to break even, I can't see offering the product at give away prices.

At older clubs, where the acquisition, design and construction costs have already been amortized, maintainance doesn't come cheap at courses where the public expects TV and PGA Tour like conditions.

Developers, while they have a love of the game, understand the significance of the bottom line.
Your dealings with Mike Pascucci, along with the references in the Sebonack book and DVD should reinforce the fact that you can't ignore or be oblivious to the financial realities.

I think that the "American" model may be broken or seriously flawed.

I see clubs that try to be all things to all people.
Look at the clubhouses that golfers EXPECT.
Look at the maintainance facilities, some equiped with dorms to house the help, look at the cost of equipment, labor, insurance, etc, etc..

The game has long ceased running on a shoestring.

Dick Youngscap happened to build his dream on land that some regard as the best land for golf in America.  And, while the land is relatively inexpensive, he had to buy thousands of acres in order to get what he wanted, and even then, he had to buy additional acreage to get the finished product that C&C wanted.

Likewise, Mike Keiser didn't just buy 280 acres.
And, while he may enjoy some economies of scale with respect to maintaining 3, 4 or 5 courses, he's got a substantial nut to crack every year and can't be charitable with green fees.

Lastly, Golf has NEVER been a blue collar game.
Horseshoes, darts, cards and bar shuffleboard are blue collar games.

Certain sports, like golf are costly to provide, and getting costlier,  hence I don't see anything that would want to make a non-governmentally owned facility offer bargain prices.

Competition can drive down prices, but, I don't see too many public golf courses close to each other.

As long as clubhouses and collateral facilities are deemed important enough to pour money into, blue collar golf will be the exception rather than the rule.

[PThomas]

Maybe I overlooked it, but how did "blue collar" become a daily fee under $100?  .

an excellent point

[Greg Murphy]

I read somewhere that Mike Keiser began with a simple observation and belief—that most of America's great courses are private, but if courses like National Golf Links and Cypress Point were public they would be big winners. He didn't hire consultants to tell him that, in fact he avoided getting that kind of advice because he knew anyone he hired would tell him he was crazy. The rest is history.

Could history be remade, only at the $50/round level? My gut tells me it could. Am I crazy?

[Joe Hancock]

I don't know if this comment has relevance, but it bothered me a lot from a business perspective once I realized what was going on:

I took my wife and daughter to get soft serve ice cream one evening. I stood at the window, ordered and received frosty treats. I paid about $12 and was there for maybe 3 minutes. Then it struck me; back at the course, I get about $12 per nine walking, I have to neatly groom and maintain approx. 50 acres, and be liable for the golfers safety for the next two hours or so. I realized I was trapped in a bad business plan at that point. I should have opened a soft serve ice cream shop in the clubhouse.

I realize that doesn't address the "great golf course" issue, but it may help put things in perspective as to why golf is priced the way it is at many places.

Joe

[Mike_Young]

If great means gaining notiriety and national attention then no....because the cost of promoting such a course on a national level could exceed the cost a reasonable greenfee......no different than local "top" restaurants that each little town has......hidden gems will always be hidden by their nature...no need to try and change them....IMHO

[Patrick Kiser]

Tim Leahy,

Good call on La Purisima, but you've probably it's going up up and ... hopefully not away.


Tom,

After all these posts, it's pretty clear the pickens are slim.

Maybe this could be a renaissance for affordable 9 holers???

[Steve Lang]

  Well there is a Doak Trail..  It starts SW of Gaylord on C-38 goes west to US 131/M66, southwest to M72 and goes west to end at Acme..  

p.s. we like to play Grandview along the way, coming or going (off M72 near Kalkaska), mostly just the back 9.. not great but entertaining..

blue collar golf interest is having fun with friends, getting outside, living and breathing in a natural setting, not much more really.. gca.. yeh, its a neat course setting, gotta have some game..

[Doug Ralston]

Doug wants somebody great to come do one of the Kentucky State Park courses. A good possibility.

Three, actually. Dale Hollow, Hidden Cove, and Eagle Ridge which is sadly off line because of drought, see ya next Spring; are $42 max, now $32 off season. They would exceed $100 in Chicago IMHO.

Also great to visit are Eagle Eye in Bath, MI, Rock Hollow in Peru, IN, The Tennessean in Paris, TN [Foster, same as Harverster], and Sultan's Run in Jasper, IN.

There are a lot of nice cheap surprises out there.

The reason Kentucky comes to mind is that the State got involved in building them, and spared not a lot of expense. They also thought course from the beginning, with all the Signature Trail operating out of trailers for years till the courses were in excellent condition. Many only now getting clubhouses. All attitude was about making a Trail competitive with RTJ. Everyone I know who has done both likes KY Trail better. We ARE 'blue collar' [aka Redneck].

Thanks for the pitch into my wheelhouse!  

Doug