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Mark Bourgeois

Re:Was CBM's the first "Redan?"
« Reply #25 on: October 16, 2007, 04:56:04 PM »
Dan, just curious, but where does he say he played N Berwick in 1906? The paragraph in which he describes his activities "abroad" in 1906 mentions Hoylake and St. Andrews but not NB.  I assume you've found the reference in another part of the book. (Wish it had an index.)

Rich, I don't know if this helps but in Scotland's Gift:
1. CBM's inclusion of the Redan in the "ideal golf course" is mentioned as, "187 yards. Resembling Redan, North Berwick."
2. As I see it, CBM was something of a reductionist in his identification of the ideal or template holes.  He didn't just identify entire holes as templates but would break holes down into constituent parts then sometimes reassemble parts from different holes into a new hole.  Sometimes he'd even slap two "template" greens together into one green.  It's possible that's his takeaway of the original Redan.

As to whether he would claim to have invented the Redan, I would say even The Neanderthal of Golf himself would make no such claims:

"Don't seek an original idea in building a golf course.  John La Farge somewhere has said if 'an idea were an original one it is safe to say it would not be a good one.' " -- Scotland's Gift, p. 246.

Now it's your turn: can you tell me, in as specific terms as possible, how the hole at North Berwick came to be christened with the name "Redan?" Does the history have anything to say on this?

Semiotically and idiotically,
Mark

Rich Goodale

Re:Was CBM's the first "Redan?"
« Reply #26 on: October 16, 2007, 05:07:11 PM »
Mark

I said it briefly above.  A "redan" is a type of fortress (look it up in any decent dictionary).  It was particularly used at the battle of Sevastopol in the Crimean War, and one or both of two NB members, John Whyte Neville and Sir David Baird who were involved in the battle, apparently gave the name to that green complex.

Yo can't look at the NB Redan without thinking fortress.  As for the replicas in the States, none look so impregnable, at least IMO.

Rich

Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Was CBM's the first "Redan?"
« Reply #27 on: October 16, 2007, 05:14:48 PM »
For what it's worth, from the August 1914 edition of Golf Illustrated, Ben Sayers writes in his essay "Impressions of American Golf:"

"The Redan hole of the National is a wonderful copy of the North Berwick Redan. It gives one the same feeling when standing on the tee to play the tee-shot."
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Mark Bourgeois

Re:Was CBM's the first "Redan?"
« Reply #28 on: October 16, 2007, 05:25:58 PM »
Rich

Well-meant thanks but I am familiar with the original Redan; I recall an afternoon spent in a freezing-cold library researching it.  I had just come from playing a baseball game in the hot outdoors and my raglan-sleeved jersey provided little warmth, so I had to dig a cardigan out of my bag.

I was looking for something specific and concrete relating to the tagging of the hole with the "Redan" moniker. Please refer to my third asterisked paragraph:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=31601

Any help in the history or is the specific origin lost?  Seriously, why "Redan" and not something else?

Mark

Mark Bourgeois

Re:Was CBM's the first "Redan?"
« Reply #29 on: October 16, 2007, 05:26:43 PM »
Oops, missed the latter half of your reference!

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Was CBM's the first "Redan?"
« Reply #30 on: October 16, 2007, 08:08:51 PM »
Rich,

The fortress like green at NGLA sits HIGH above the surrounding terrain.

Take a look at the first at The Creek on Google Earth and let me know how similar it is to the Redan at NB as a par 4.

Thanks

Andrew Summerell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Was CBM's the first "Redan?"
« Reply #31 on: October 16, 2007, 10:43:00 PM »
The Redan existed as early as 1869 as the 6th hole. It is referred to as a one shot hole in an article I have that was written in the early 1870’s. I’ll try to find it & post it. When the course was altered in 1895, the shortest hole on the course is quoted as 243y. It was then that the Redan became the 15th and was lengthened from its original length, to which it was restored later.

I’m not sure when CBM played NB, but if he played it pre-1895, he would have played a hole measuring less than 200y.

Peter Pallotta

Re:Was CBM's the first "Redan?"
« Reply #32 on: October 16, 2007, 11:12:14 PM »
Richard
I'm not sure I'm understanding your question correctly; in fact, I'm almost sure I'm not. But for what it's worth, here's a snippet of a 1915 article CBM wrote describing the Lido golf course, and it sounds like the Redan at North Berwick that he saw prior to his work on NGLA was not a short two shotter. Here it is:

"The sixteenth hole [at Lido] is a replica of the Redan at North Berwick, familiar in this country to those who have played the fourth at the National or the third at Piping Rock. Comment upon this hole is unnecessary as it is so well known, but it may be interesting to know that in the controversy in 1901 and 1902 as to the best holes, the majority of players named the eleventh at St. Andrews first, but the Redan at North Berwick ran it a very close second. To my mind, although I am a St. Andrews man, the only reason the eleventh at St. Andrews was selected by the majority is that the the St. Andrews hole was better known than the Redan. I consider the Redan to be the finest one-shot hole in the world, and on any golf course where one has freedom in choice there should always be a place."
« Last Edit: October 16, 2007, 11:12:53 PM by Peter Pallotta »

TEPaul

Re:Was CBM's the first "Redan?"
« Reply #33 on: October 17, 2007, 12:07:15 AM »
Andrew and Peter:

Terrific research documentation!

In what Macdonald referred to as "The Best Hole Discussion" in the London Golf Illustrated in 1900 he mentions the question asked in the magazine:

"Which do you consider the most testing holes of any course in the United Kingdom, having special regard to these salient features: (1) length (2) accidents of hazard? This question should be answered in respect to the three classes of holes; namely, those which require one, two and three shots each to reach the putting green."

Macdonald mentioned in his book, the Redan, or Fifteenth, at North Berwick was a good second in the one shot category.

Rich Goodale

Re:Was CBM's the first "Redan?"
« Reply #34 on: October 17, 2007, 12:44:58 AM »
Andrew

You are not completely right, in that in 1877 the Redan was 210 yards, according to the history ("In the Wind's Eye--North Berwick Golf Club" by Alistair Beaton Adamson, BTW).  In those days of the guttie, when 400 yard holes were called "Long," 210 yards was a pretty good poke

Macdonald was at St. Andrews from 1872-1875(?) at which time I do not doubt he played the Redan, which could have been shorter than 210 yards then.  I don't know.  As you say, and I have previously mentioned, it was changed to 266 yards in 1895, well after he had gone back to the States, and well before he came back in the early 1900's to refresh his memory on Scottish golf.  There is no documentation that I know of to say that the Redan was reduced from 266 yards its current length of 175 prior to the Sayers/Hutchinson work in 1932, so I am just speculating that Mcdonald may be referring to the Redan of his adolescent memory (c. 1872) rather than the one that existed on the ground when he wrote his article in 1915, for example.

Peter and Paul(TE)

In those quotes, Macdonald is just repeating what others have said (i.e. the 1900-1902 lists).  In all instances he seems to refer to the Redan as something immutable.  As all of us know, from the historical documentation, that is not true.  Did he know of the changes, or did he even care?  Did he actually visit North Berwick and the Redan when he returned to Scotland in the early part of the 20th Century?  I don't know yet from what others have said, and I wonder........

Andrew Summerell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Was CBM's the first "Redan?"
« Reply #35 on: October 17, 2007, 01:22:41 AM »
I’m sure you are right, Richard. The article I’m referring to I believe (from memory) was written in 1872. I also have a copy of a letter written about 1879 that speaks of the “vigilance needed to toughen the links”, or words to that effect. (I remember the quote because I found it amusing). I’m not sure whether this mentality accounts for any lengthening between 1869 & 1877. It may have been 210y right from the start.

Rich Goodale

Re:Was CBM's the first "Redan?"
« Reply #36 on: October 17, 2007, 01:54:40 AM »
Don't be too sure, Andrew!  I started this thread because I was interested in the topic but wasn't sure of anything, and am still not, despite the very thoughtful and informative contributions of you and others.  Thanks.

Rich

Bryan Izatt

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Re:Was CBM's the first "Redan?"
« Reply #37 on: October 17, 2007, 02:58:31 AM »
Dan and Sean

The offical club history has the length of the Redan in 1895 as being 266 yards (and this is confirmed by a routing diagram in the book).  It also talks about shortening the 4th hole c. 1910-1915 (by 68 yards) in order eliminate the crossing between the two holes (the old 4th tee was near the 3rd green), which implies that the 266 yard Redan was still in place then.   Maybe CBM (who turned 60 in 1906) and Hutchinson were playing off the ladies tees...... ;)

I still have an open mind on this.

Rich

Rich,

Can you post the routing diagram?  Was the tee just east of the 14th green (as it now exists)?  Was it their practise to measure holes to the middle of the green or to the front edge?  

In any event it couldn't have been 266 yds.  Using Google Earth's ruler 266 yds from the middle of the current green would get you back almost onto the beach.  Maybe 250 as the crow flies would have been possible.  Perhaps they measured distances by pacing up and down the swales - maybe there's an extra 16 yards there.  Assuming the wall was there in that era, a 210 yard tee must have been over towards the area of the current 4th tee.

Rich Goodale

Re:Was CBM's the first "Redan?"
« Reply #38 on: October 17, 2007, 04:34:09 AM »
Brian

What I have are very small stick routings (although overlaid on maps which have a lot of the features of the course).  I can't post them on GCA (too incompetent) but will be happy to scan them and send them to you if you send me your e-mail address.  If you can clean up my scan and post them on GCA, be my guest!

You are right that the "266" yard tee was to the east of the 14th green, and with Google Earth, my daughter's ruler and 6th grade algebra I can get pretty close to 266 if you assume it was behind the green, close to the dune line, which is consistent with green-tee placements of that era.  Regardless of the actual length it would hever have been a "one-shot" hole in the guttie age (but a really great and interesting hole nonetheless!).

The "210" tee was on the other (NW) side of the current 4th/15th tee area, next to what was then the 14th green.  The land on which the current 14th is located was not part of the club in 1877.

I don't have a clue how and to and from where they measured, although from what I read, all clubs in those days seemed to be striving for the longest published length possible, much like today.  Some, like the 1892 Dornoch map which strongly implies what Old Tom Morris actually did there, were carried out by professional surveyors.  The NB maps I have seem to be more instructional than professional.

Rich

Sean_A

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Re:Was CBM's the first "Redan?"
« Reply #39 on: October 17, 2007, 05:20:05 AM »
Rich

Going back to the original "hypothesis": The Redan we know today may have been created closer to 1932 than 1895.  Given, what folks have said and what I suspect you already knew, I think it is highly unlikely that the Redan of today was created any later than 1897.  

It appears that a 266 yard "Redan" was used for a short period, maybe a few years, maybe a few months.  I wonder what the driving force was in reducing the length of the hole to its current yardage?  When did the Redan become a famous par 3?  I thought it had a reputation as a great par 3 well before 1895.  

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Rich Goodale

Re:Was CBM's the first "Redan?"
« Reply #40 on: October 17, 2007, 05:43:49 AM »
Sean

I respectfully disagree.  All I have seen on this is CBM writing about and describing HIS Redan (at NGLA).  Nothing about whatever sort of "Redan" at NB he happened to play subsequent to 1875.  Hutchinson, too--not clear when he last played the Redan--before or after 1895?  The only "scholarly" source I have is from the Club at NB, and they say nothing swignificant about their Redan after they moved it back to ~266 yards in 1895.

To me, writers only have credibility if they can document what they say.  There are a number of people in the literature (and even on this on this website :o) who make broad statements about places they have never played, and present it as "fact," because they read it somewhere, from somebody who may or may not be credible.

Caveat lector.

Andrew Summerell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Was CBM's the first "Redan?"
« Reply #41 on: October 17, 2007, 07:26:36 AM »
Hypothetically, if the hole wasn’t shortened until the 1930’s, but it is obvious that CBM used the 15th at NB as his template, are we suggesting that CBM used only the green complex as his template & not the entire hole?

Is it possible that NB’s Redan influenced CBM, who in turn influenced NB?

This interests me a great deal, as NB is quite possibly my 'all world'  favourite course.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2007, 07:28:42 AM by Andrew Summerell »

TEPaul

Re:Was CBM's the first "Redan?"
« Reply #42 on: October 17, 2007, 07:50:27 AM »
"Peter and Paul(TE)
In those quotes, Macdonald is just repeating what others have said (i.e. the 1900-1902 lists)."

Rich:

That's right, and what others said (as a poll of 20-30 responders) during that "Best Hole Discussion" in London's Golf Illustrated in 1900-01 was that NB's Redan was a good second to the Eden as a one shot hole!

Macdonald lists some of the responders that include Low, Hutchinson, Balfour-Melville, Fowler, Hilton, Vardon, Taylor, Braid, Park etc.

How could all those people have thought in 1900-01 that NB's Redan was a one shot hole if it wasn't?  

Macdonald also explains that he used that "Best Hole Discussion" as the basis to create some of the holes (and pars) at NGLA.

On the other hand, Macdonald does explain in his book that he was not exactly trying to physically duplicate the look of those prototype holes from that magazine competition but basically to copy their concepts, even on parts of holes. There is certainly enough different about NB's Redan compared to any other Redan, including NGLA's, to make that fact pretty obvious. The fact that he also copied the Redan concept "in part" is also pretty obvious in the first hole at The Creek which was designed in 1922. That Redan green is at the end of a par 4.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2007, 07:59:00 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re:Was CBM's the first "Redan?"
« Reply #43 on: October 17, 2007, 08:08:15 AM »
Frankly, I've always thought a more interesting architectural question than the heritage of NGLA's Redan is where Macdonald came up with the idea of that huge swale concept in his Biarritz holes.

Apparently the first swale Biarritz he did over here was at Piping Rock in 1913.

It seems to me he likely got that idea from NB's 16th green (a par 4) but I can't see that either Macdonald or anyone else ever actually said that.

Or is it possible that Macdonald may've taken that front swale (at Piping Rock's #9) from something like the Valley of Sin at TOC's #18?

It certainly has been said that Hugh Wilson borrowed the Valley of Sin idea for his 17th green at Merion built in 1911.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2007, 08:09:29 AM by TEPaul »

Dan Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Was CBM's the first "Redan?"
« Reply #44 on: October 17, 2007, 08:34:00 AM »
CBM's description of playing the Redan as a one shot hole in Scotland's gift is very clear (or crystal as Tom Cruise says to Jack Nicholson in A Few Good Men).  The description is around pp. 25-26 though I don't have the book available to me today to check.  I'm also pretty sure he was talking about 1906 but can't double check that at the moment.  
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Was CBM's the first "Redan?"
« Reply #45 on: October 17, 2007, 01:40:05 PM »
A bit more information, courtesy of John Kerr's The Golf Book of East Lothian published in 1896.

Prior to around 1860, North Berwick was a six hole course, not extending as far as the current Redan. One hole was added sometime before 1869 making it a seven hole course:

"with one exception, these holes were much the same as the first three and the last three of the course before the recent extension was made. The first teeing ground was far back, near the west end of the Links, and a long carry was required to cross the burn, which ran past the present site of the new club-house and Hutchinson's shop (now represented by the road). Then in driving to the sea, an ugly quarry, now filled up, had to be faced. The Gate hole on the return from the wall was more difficult of approach than it is even now, for the putting ground was then surrounded by water from another burn, the track of which is represented by the present road. The formidable quarry again met the player on his way to Point Garry. Then came the sixth hole or short hole, which was called the Gasworks hole, and was usually carried by a cleek or iron from the return tee-ing ground on Point Garry, its putting-green being in a hollow, where one of the villas now stands. In playing for the last hole, a long 'swipe' was required to cross the burn, and a good second to reach the putting-ground, which was like the first tee, well back at the west end of the present Links."(72)

In 1869, three holes were added beyond the wall and the Gasworks hole was eliminated, making the course a nine hole course. In 1877 the course was enlarged to 18 holes, when the course got permission to encroach on Ferrygate, to the Eel Burn. The Redan was probably added in 1869.

Kerr mentions the seven hole course were matches between The Dunns and old Tom and Allan Robertson. The nine hole course was were Tommy Morris and father were playing Willie Park and son when Tommy got word of his wife's illness.

"The old eighteen-hole course, though it was certainly too short, had a great many features about it which endeared it to golfers. The designer of the new course acted very wisely and considerately in preserving some of these, such as the Redan, the Quarry, and the Pit."(74)

With the enlargement, the 15th hole is listed as 266, and on the card, the 266-yard 15th cross with the 243 yard fourth.  At the end of Kerr's description of the new 1895 course, he wrote, "The fifteenth ('Redan') and the last three holes remain as before." The course opened in June 1895, with a professional and amateur tournament. The amateurs played on June 3rd and the pros June 5th. The event was scheduled the week before the Open was to be played at St. Andrews, so the turnout of top players was large and representative. Mr. J.H. Outhwaite won the amateur event with scores:

555-345-565--455-555-753--87
and
454-444-455--546-473-554--82

While Outhwaite played the hole 5-3, the top pros played it much better.

A. Herd 3-3.
W. Fernie 3-4.
A. Kirkaldy 3-3.
T. Vardon 3-4.
H. Vardon 5-4.
D. Brown 4-4.
Ben Sayers 3-4.

There is no individual hole scores for the rest of the field. J.H. Taylor was the defending Open champion and would win again the following week, but finished 12 shots behind Herd.
It would seem the pros of the time didn't have too much trouble making three on the 266 yard Redan. Half of the scores from these pros were threes. It's possible sometimes they played the Redan shorter than the card (though moving tees was not very common then) but you'd think for the first professional tournament, they'd play the full length.

Mr. Edward L.I. Blyth writes about his years playing at North Berwick:

"The first extension of the green into the park neyond the west wall was, I think, in 1870. There were three holes, the first being in the neighborhood of Perfection (presently the fourteenth hole); from there we played to the south-west corner of the park, to where the fourth hole of the ladies' green now is; from that to the Redan, which was a lovely shot. I used to play it with my spoon -- a full drive, though high, so as to land on the table and escape the large bunkers on either side."(387-388)

Ben Sayer set the course record on September 28, 1895 on the new, extended course:
Out: 555-453-454--40
In: 344-452-445--35--75

It would seem at 266, the Redan was considered a one-shotter, a long one, but still a one-shotter.

Cheers,
Dan King

 
Quote
A very distinguished statesman, whose identity must not be disclosed, said to me, after a visit to the new green at Easter, that he was disappointed. North Berwick he said, used to be North Berwick, and North Berwick only -- now it might be any place. The links had, he thought, lost the peculuar charm which lay in their well-marked individuality."
  J.P. Croal (The Evolution of Gullane and North Berwick: A Glance Back Thirty Years)

Peter Pallotta

Re:Was CBM's the first "Redan?"
« Reply #46 on: October 17, 2007, 02:41:32 PM »
Rich
you wondered if CBM actually went to NB prior to starting NGLA. Here's a snippet from a 1914 article by CBM and Whigham that seems to make that clear.

"Said the North Berwick caddie to Mr. Macdonald when he was on the quest for ideal holes for the coming National Links 'Here’s the hole that makes a man think.' Then he took a handful of grass and threw it in the air to see exactly in what direction the light breeze was blowing. For there are more ways of playing the Redan than any other short hole in
existence. The force and direction of the wind not only determines the club to be chosen and the strength to be used, but also the direction and character of the stroke."

P

Rich Goodale

Re:Was CBM's the first "Redan?"
« Reply #47 on: October 17, 2007, 09:31:47 PM »
Sorry, all, but I've been working... :'(

Tom

An interesting footnote to the 16th is that the book I'm citing says that when the course was 6 holes (i.e. well prior to 1877), roughly the same greensite was used, but it was wilder and more difficult!  The mind boggles....

Dan M and Peter

I did read that bit in the article posted, but it was so casually written that I wondered if, how, why and when CB had his first revelation about the Redan.  I'm leaning to the oppostie of my thesis, but I'm not on the canvas yet.

Dak K

Great hearing from you and thanks for the interesting data.  That 75 by Ben Sayers is a pretty amazing score for that day and age.  It wasn't until the Haskell came out that the pros were regularly breaking 80 on 6000+ yard courses.  The other data seem to imply that the Redan they were playing was not the 266 yard one.  I don't think you would get so many 3's on such a lengthy and difficult hole, even today.  Maybe the back tee was just there for show, and/or the locals rebelled against playing it and reverted to the "old" one?  Such things have happened before and continue to happen today.

Rich

Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Was CBM's the first "Redan?"
« Reply #48 on: October 17, 2007, 10:27:29 PM »
Yeah, I think the 266 was an exaggeration. Perhaps they measured from just off the 14th green to the back of the 15th green. I believe by 1870 they were no longer teeing it up within two club-lengths of the previous hole, but the course diagram shows the 15th tee right next to the 14th hole.

According to rules history, regarding teeing ground:

R&A 1875: between eight and twelve, and, additionally, "except where special ground has been marked by the Conservator of the Links, which shall be considered the ‘teeing ground,’ and the balls shall be teed within, and not in advance of, such marks".  This is the first mention of a teeing ground, and markers.

R&A 1882: the teeing ground was denoted by markers alone, and the maximum depth of two club lengths was introduced.

Before 1875 the R&A rules, which North Berwick used (except for special rules for the Quarry) was between six and eight club lengths of the previous hole.

They might have exaggerated on their new course to get the total yardage to 6,095. They would have wanted it to measure out more than 6,000 yards :-).

It is always fun to open up The Golf Book of East Lothian. So much cool stuff in there.

Cheers,
Dan King
Quote
A well-known East Lothian minister (Rev. Mr. Tait, Aberlady) once found his way to the top of the Great Pyramid, and putting his hand in his pocket he found one of Morris's 28's. The instinct on a keen golfer prompted him to tee it up, and, swinging his umbrella for want of a club, he sent it spinning far out of sight in the direction of the Holy Land. After such a mighty effort he sat down to rest and meditate. He pictured to himself some antiquary finding the ball, now somewhat faded by the ruthless hand of time, and with all the ardour of a Pickwick trying to decipher the inscription on the ball and reading 'Moses.' 'Ah!' says he, 'I never knew before, that the great law-giver of Israel was a golfer.'
 --P.W. in Scotsman, May 22, 1889

TEPaul

Re:Was CBM's the first "Redan?"
« Reply #49 on: October 18, 2007, 03:00:04 AM »
Rich:

Just out of interest, when was that club history of North Berwick you've been referring to written?

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