[Patrick_Mucci]

in the "architectural" golfing world ?

As a derivitive to the "which five courses would you restore thread", which restorations would have the biggest impact, architecturally, in the golfing world ?

You can suggest ANGC, but, the likelihood of a restoration is an exercise in futility.

I'll start by citing Garden City, specifically, the 12th hole, and collaterally, other features/holes.

I believe it would send a signal, to clubs near and far, that restoring holes that have been previously altered, especially those that were disfigured, that "greatness" and/or originality, can be recaptured, to the benefit of the golf course, the members and golf in general.

Tree clearing became a viable trend only after Oakmont, Shinnecock, NGLA and other prominent clubs embarked upon substantive tree clearing programs.  

Once the "ICONS" initiate a program it signals a "stamp of approval" to the rest of those clubs seeking to undertake similar projects.

So, what restorations would have a substantive impact, architecturally, on the golfing world ?

[Kyle Harris]

Cobb's Creek, especially if some sort of the original plans exist.

That restoration would just be STRIKING in terms of before/after both with conditioning and the exposition of some wonderfully original golf holes.

The stretch from the current 3rd to the 7th holes, and from the 9th through 17th are a great stretch over some severe terrain. The use of the namesake creek from 3-7 is both interesting and varied with the play being penal, heroic and strategic from hole to hole.

Given a full construction budget, I'd do the work for free.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I strongly second Cobb's Creek. Not many courses can claim an input from Hugh Wilson.

[SPDB]

Patrick:

I think for work to have an impact on the scale you're talking about (clubs near and far), the course must have some corresponding exposure. GCGC is a very private club with no national and little regional exposure except to those who play the course. Restoration of the 12th would be exciting, but I don't really know that it would register in the way you think.

Ideally, the easiest way for a course to have impact is for it to be showcased in a tournament.

One that spring to mind is Riviera, especially given that its on TV 4 days a year and is very popular with tour players. Interestingly, I think if Merion gets to 2012 without tinkering, I think that will send a strong message.

[David Stamm]

Pat, I don't think the courses I cited on the last thread would be much different (in terms of selection). I would love to see Dick Wilson's inexcusable travesty reversed at specifically the 12th (Mae West) at Bel Air.

16th at La Cumbre (if not the whole darn thing)

Most of the front nine at LACC North, especially the 5-8 stretch.

4th at Ojai Valley, along with the original 1st. As well as the present 6th.

18th at RSFGC and reintroduce the creek bed into play on the front 9.

...and for close to home, returning San Clemente to it's original form.

[Joel_Stewart]

Even though you say ANGC is a exercise in futility it would be the most significant restoration since possibly Bethpage and have a greater impact.

[Mark Bourgeois]

TOC, and quite possibly no matter which year they chose to "restore" it to, although I would enjoy watching the mass freak-out if they restored it to the "narrow" version whose loss was so lamented by CB Macdonald.

[Patrick_Mucci]

SBerry,

Do you really think that a golf course ranked around 25th modern by Golfweek and in the top 100 in other Magazine rankings suffers from a lack of exposure ?

The problem with Riviera or any course that hosts PGA Tour evnts is that you have a clear conflict between presenting a challenge for the best golfers in the world and restoring features that the members would enjoy.

I don't think restoration advocacy can go toe to toe with venues prepared for the PGA Tour.

Rumor has it that Merion can already smell the ether.
What odds do you give on Merion remaining untouched, let alone restored, by 2012 ?

Joel Stewart,

See my response above.

Kyle & Steve,

Is the membership like minded ?
Have they considered revisions/restorations ?

[David Stamm]

Kyle & Steve,

Is the membership like minded ?
Have they considered revisions/restorations ?

Pat, I think they would have a hard time getting the members that reside in Camden to along with the plans.

[Mike_Cirba]

From pictures, possibly Montauk Downs....the H.C. Tippett version.

Timber Point would be incredible, and it's very doable.

By this time next week, I should know whether a restoration of Cobb's Creek is even possible based on the original course....stay tuned.

[Brad Klein]

Dream list, in addition to those mentioned above, where it's most needed:

CC of Birmingham - West Course, Ala.

Lido, N.Y.

Los Angeles CC - North Course, Cal.

Cherry Hills CC, Col.

Hollywood CC, N.J.

Yale GC, Ct.

[Mike_Cirba]

Rumor has it that Merion can already smell the ether.
What odds do you give on Merion remaining untouched, let alone restored, by 2012 ?

Patrick,

That's about as sad a statement as I've read on this site and if accurate, about as serious a reason for any club to run in the other direction when approached by the USGA tournament committtee.

Can't they just let them play?

The 12th and 15 greens are in play for hundreds of golfers every single day of the year and there is no problem.  

How does castrating those greens make any sense to anyone??

[Tommy Williamsen]

Any major restoration to Pine Valley would send ripples all across the golf world.

[Lester George]

I still think the Raynor course at the Greenbrier would set a high standard.  

Gibson Island also comes to mind.

That CBM/Raynor/Banks style has already had implications on design styles and continues to influence my thinking because of experience at Old Whit and Cavalier.

Just my opinion.  

I have a client that wants a new course built in that styleand I suspect I'll have more.


Lester

[Matt_Cohn]

Restoring Pinehurst #2 to before the greens became so domed.

[Rich Goodale]

TOC, and quite possibly no matter which year they chose to "restore" it to, although I would enjoy watching the mass freak-out if they restored it to the "narrow" version whose loss was so lamented by CB Macdonald.

Mark

Was CB talking about the "really 'narrow' version" (i.e. before the creation of the double greens in the 1850's) or just the fairly narrow version prior to the clearing of some whins to the right going out in the late 19th century/early 1900's (by OTM, Low and others).  He would have personally known of the latter, but not the former.

Rich

[Patrick_Mucci]

Any major restoration to Pine Valley would send ripples all across the golf world.

Tommy,

What architectural features need to be restored at PV ?

Matt Cohn,

Are you suggesting that Pinehurst # 2 restore the sand greens ?

Having played Pinehurst # 2 45 years ago, I can tell you that those greens were umbrella shaped at that time.

To what year were you refering ?

[Mark Bourgeois]

Rich

Not to be artificially precise, but taking him at his literal word he is referring to the TOC of 1876.

1850, 1876: either way, people would freak out, ne pas ils?

Mark

[JMorgan]

Courses below would have greatest impact in US due to scale of restorations, location, and market served -- from championship golf to daily fee seaside.  

From the It Is Possible/Not a Pipedream list:

Congressional Blue - don't get me started
Timber Point - if you have to ask, then you'll never know
Sharp Park - ditto, hurrah for top caliber muni golf
Gibson Island - plenty of potential laying waste
Boca Raton - could be #1 in FLA?

Honorable mention:

Gillson Park, Wilmette, IL
No longer a gc, but a great site for a new "old school" golf course

[Tim_Weiman]

What is this about Gibson Island?

From old pictures it does look like something special, but wasn't the land of the golf course developed as real estate?

[Matt_Cohn]

Pat,

I'm not sure what year. I remember seeing a picture on this website and/or Shackelford's of the 4th green at Pinehurst #2, taken from behind, very clearly lacking a fall-off - it was nearly flat. I'm quite sure the green was grass, not sand.

I'm not necessarily advocating such a restoration; but it would be interesting, and I'd personally like to see more people realize that "Donald Ross greens" are a lot more than just "upturned saucers"!

[David Stamm]

After seeing Sean's pics of Pasa, TD is making a great case there right now. I don't even know where to begin.

[Mark_Fine]

Any noteworthy/high exposure course that is restored will have a big impact on others.  Which will have the most impact, who knows, but the precedent that any leading club sets is important to golf architecture as many other clubs watch what the leading clubs are doing.  

I have said many times in the past, very few courses should be "restored" as they were (I hope that makes Mike Young happy  .  But EVERY course out there at least deserves a thorough look before tearing it up under the guise of "modernization".  Furthermore, regarding hosting championships; I happen to think it is ridiculous that courses change their design to the detriment of the majority of their membership for an event they will host for one week every 10 years.  Some older clubs just don't realize how good their golf course was and/or could be (without a redesign) with some careful attention to detail and TLC.  I believe that architects who work on these older courses need to take a stand as they can make a big difference as to their recommendations for improving and "modernizing" them.  Judging by what I sometimes see, some apparently just cater to the $$ and do what the powers to be say should be done.  I recently met with one high profile architect and he said to me that, “We try to guide them but it is their club and we do what they think is best for their golf course.”  I’m sorry but to me that is like saying to your doctor, “I appreciate your thoughts but I think I’ll just choose my own treatment.”  That said, as long as they aren't moving and/or rebuilding greens and regrading/rerouting holes, golf courses are mostly just grass and dirt and most features can be restored when clearer minds prevail.

[Mike_Cirba]

By this time next week, I should know whether a restoration of Cobb's Creek is even possible based on the original course....stay tuned.

I have in my hand copies of the Dallin Aerials of Cobbs Creek, with photos beginning at 1928 thru 1939, which just arrived today..

I can say this much with certainty.  

By 1930 the course is much, much more similar to today's course than previous reports.  

The major change is that the land that is currently serving as an independent driving range down on Route 1 was part of the course.   As such, it seems that the loss of that land (for whatever conceiveable reason but I have a REAL good guess) necessitated the re-routing of a few holes.

However, the great news is that it is definitely possible to restore the course to what it was in 1930 (and I've never heard any account of any significant changes between 1916 and 1930, except for the building of the first 11 holes of the adjacent Karakung course, which are evident in the photos as well) is eminently possible because about 80% of today's course is original and it appears that every original greensite is intact!  

I have two more photos coming soon.

One thing I'd point out is that it certainly wasn't a masterful bunkering job and that a number of holes have openings in front but are bunkered all the way across the back of the green.  

Also, the photos are great because they also seem to trace changes at the adjacent McCall Field GC by Flynn.

Oh...if he had only bunkered Cobbs!

[M. Shea Sweeney]

Timber Point-

I'm not sure how much of the original could be brought back, but there could be some serious work done.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()