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Mike_Young

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STRATEGY.....where does it start?
« on: October 13, 2007, 10:44:15 PM »
After reading thru the TD/JN thread and seeing the opinions re the benefits of being a good player to design a course....got me to thinking....
I think there are some architects that create strategy from the tee forward and some that create strategy from the green backwards.....I would think the tour pro/designer would in most cases think that due to his superior understanding of golf shots he would design from the tee forward.....whereas those of us that don't have that talent design from the green backward....what say you dudes?
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:STRATEGY.....where does it start?
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2007, 11:01:11 PM »
Mike:

That's another good way of looking at things.

I would agree that I design more from the green backward and Jack designs more from the tee forward.

I'm not sure that is a matter of 10 hcp vs. pro, but just the preference of our own golf games.  I believe Crenshaw would also design from the green backward; perhaps Seve and Tom Watson as well because they were all about their short games.

But, to answer the question you posed in the title, I think strategy starts with the routing plan, because it's there that the general tilt of the green and the angle of the hole and the defense of the landing area (slopes which will provide good spots for bunkers) are all decided.  If there is a 10-foot drop to the right of the landing area, it doesn't matter whether you put a bunker there or not, you're taking a risk playing to the right side.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2007, 11:03:39 PM by Tom_Doak »

Kirk Gill

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Re:STRATEGY.....where does it start?
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2007, 11:08:44 PM »
Interesting. So Tom (if I may call you Tom), when you say that you design from the green backward, is this after the routing is complete and you're contemplating bunker placement, etc., or do you actually route the course from the greensites backward, attempting as much as possible to find ideal greensites and then find ways to connect or use them all?
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:STRATEGY.....where does it start?
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2007, 11:13:29 PM »
Kirk:

Can't answer that because it changes from one course to another.  Sometimes you are finding cool green sites first on the map; on more severe sites you are probably just trying to find landing areas first since they're bigger and less easy to create by earthmoving than green sites are.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:STRATEGY.....where does it start?
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2007, 11:17:41 PM »
Mike:

That's another good way of looking at things.

I would agree that I design more from the green backward and Jack designs more from the tee forward.

I'm not sure that is a matter of 10 hcp vs. pro, but just the preference of our own golf games.  I believe Crenshaw would also design from the green backward; perhaps Seve and Tom Watson as well because they were all about their short games.

But, to answer the question you posed in the title, I think strategy starts with the routing plan, because it's there that the general tilt of the green and the angle of the hole and the defense of the landing area (slopes which will provide good spots for bunkers) are all decided.  If there is a 10-foot drop to the right of the landing area, it doesn't matter whether you put a bunker there or not, you're taking a risk playing to the right side.
TD,
I would agree that it starts as you describe but don't you think the tour player is going to look at a wide fairway allowing angles into a green as a much easier hole than say a 265 bunker right and and a 300 bunker left with a green looking right at them.....my thought is that these guys design never thinking about the angle and slope of the green as to the direction of play etc.  If that wasn't the case you would not see as many "flat" tiered greens....JMO  (my toughts to words may not make sense)
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:STRATEGY.....where does it start?
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2007, 11:23:20 PM »
Mike:

I know what you're saying.  Incidentally, I have it from the ONLY reliable source that those bunkers ought to go at 285 and 320 yards, regardless of what's going on with the topo.  ;)

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:STRATEGY.....where does it start?
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2007, 11:32:21 PM »
Mike:

I know what you're saying.  Incidentally, I have it from the ONLY reliable source that those bunkers ought to go at 285 and 320 yards, regardless of what's going on with the topo.  ;)

Well if the source has spoken what can I say.  I am going to see the Dali Lhama in ATL next week and wil see if he can help me with this.... ;)
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Garland Bayley

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Re:STRATEGY.....where does it start?
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2007, 11:34:21 PM »
Mike:

I know what you're saying.  Incidentally, I have it from the ONLY reliable source that those bunkers ought to go at 285 and 320 yards, regardless of what's going on with the topo.  ;)

I haven't played TOC, but since you guys revere it so much, that must be where the bunkers are located there, right? ???

 ;D
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:STRATEGY.....where does it start?
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2007, 12:27:22 AM »
Mike,

For most, it starts at Golfsmith, Nevada Bobs, or Dicks sporting goods, when they buy the latest driver and balls. ;D
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Lester George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:STRATEGY.....where does it start?
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2007, 12:37:00 AM »
I always start by identifying the best green sites, how I want to approach them starts to display the routing, that starts dictating the tees and landing areas.  

Having said that (routing creates my basic strategy), I then go to the tees to start to formulate my strategy (down the hole) and work for different ways to approach the green.  As you guys know, sometime with me, that leads to multiple routes to the green and dictates my final strategy around the green.  

I'm sure that makes no sense, but it works for me.  Of course, "I'm in competition with the land".....

Lester

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:STRATEGY.....where does it start?
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2007, 12:47:09 AM »
Lester, you would whup that land every time!

I have been in golf matches where the biggest strategic discussions centered on getting a better view of the cart girl, or best ways to cheat to win $2.

Back on topic, I tend to be a tee to green guy, the same way the player plays the hole, and obviously am no pro, so I don't think that's the overriding difference.

And, it just goes in circles or hopefully upward spirals once you have made one decision, and then tested the logical options from there.  For example, once you have one hole on a potential routing, and then select the next tee site somewhat near the green, you can start searching all 360 degrees of possible ways to go looking for potential green sites along those angles until you find one that looks promising.

Even if it is, then you start over and might find that you are boxed in a corner and might have to rethink the previous hole, or two holes, etc.  After all, the knee bone connected to the thigh bone....and so on. ;D
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Lester George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:STRATEGY.....where does it start?
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2007, 12:59:23 AM »
Jeff,

If I outpace you for the next 15 years, will I ever acheive what you have?  Collaboration with the widest variety, extreme sensibility to the needs of the client, experience in most places, and a sense of humor to boot.

Now you know why I always try to get you as a partner, by the way, we are still undefeated, are we not?

I will let you know when anyone else challeges us, however, as you know, I will not let any who are not worthy even have a chance.

LG

Mark_F

Re:STRATEGY.....where does it start?
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2007, 04:01:37 AM »
I would have thought that strategy starts with the developer, for they must have a certain vision/theme in mind for their course, and then select an architect who can deliver?


Doug Ralston

Re:STRATEGY.....where does it start?
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2007, 08:07:21 AM »
Tom Doak and other GCAs;

When you design your routing with strategy in mind, are you considering also the implications for those who hit from shorter tees? Those with 20+ handicaps?

In todays market, you will almost invariably find 4 sets of  tees, or even more, to accomodate shorters hitters and higher handicaps. But they often end up with less 'meat' on the course in their range of play. Is it assumed they will not care?

Since I just play, and do not get to design, I don't know how much thought goes into this.

Doug

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:STRATEGY.....where does it start?
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2007, 08:12:34 AM »
JB/LG,
As long as the next tee is within 1/2 mile of the green it will be fine with the new overdrive they have on the golf cars.... ;D ;D

I guess all are saying the same thing but in different ways....whether tee toward green or green toward tee.....I had always looked at it as the better players determining their tee strategy from the green elements and the pin placement that day.  
I think it is fair to say that JN changed golf strategy from green to tee into tee to green with his philosophy regarding approach shots.  Or should I say what i think his philosophy tends to be.  That is...he ask the player to hit the shot the correct distance and if he does he could be 20 feet one side or the other of the pin and have a fairly straight putt.....whereas traditional GA had always been based more on accuracy and less on exact distance with the main strategic element being to putt uphill...example...approach shot hit directly on line but say 5 yards short so as to be putting up to the hole.....because a shot of the exact distance to either side would have excessive break etc.....so to me you have two approach strategies..one based on distance control over accuracy and the other based on accuracy with less distance control.....I think this is proven out every year when the pros play on an classic US Open course vs. the weekly venue.  For myself it seems as though the exact distance strategy peaks after the approach shot for the good player and with the accuracy strategy it can be after the putt.....  JMO.....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:STRATEGY.....where does it start?
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2007, 08:22:53 AM »
How often would you guys say strategy starts on the topo for Nicklaus, Norman, etc. v. non-pro player architects, or do you think the difference is negligible or more dependent on individual style?

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:STRATEGY.....where does it start?
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2007, 12:39:25 PM »
I approach strategy in various stages, starting with the routing, which dictates the length, flow and sequence of the holes.....all of which can be influenced by the topography and natural features of the site...... if the site is devoid of any important features then I rely more on invention.
Usually most sites have some 'givens' that require attention...its rare to find a site that is truly a blank canvas.

Coastlines and other water features influence the routing, as well as any site features I might want incorporate in the body of a hole....good tee sites, fairways or green sites.

I then try to focus attention on the individual hole strategies....I try to create a storyline  for each hole that provides a strategic connection from tee to green.

Whether these strategies start at the tee, or work back from the green depends largely on whether I have any features I am trying to work into the hole....ie, if I was I am working with an existing natural green site then the strategy works in reverse...if its a good tee site, then it starts there.
If its a good fairway feature, then the process works in both directions.

If I am lucky enough to have a great existing tee, fairway and green site...then I try to stay out of the way and not mess things up.

If the opposite is true, and the hole has nothing to offer in existing features worth considering....then I put on my thinking cap and get to work....and I tend to drink more on site, especially in the after hours when everyone has left.

Hope this helps! ;)  
« Last Edit: October 14, 2007, 12:40:12 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Randy Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:STRATEGY.....where does it start?
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2007, 02:00:30 PM »
There is no cook-book method if you are truly trying to deliver the best product. What are the developers desires, what is the land calling for, what has transpired on previous holes, what is going to be happening on the upcoming holes. I try to focus on helping the high handicapper get around the course with as many breaks as possible so not to be accused of, “Architorture” while at the same time trying to get into the good players head and force them to hit good shots after hopefully considering various alternatives, in order to separate the good players from the excellent players. Not sure if most of you low handicappers remember or not when you were a high handicap player but you don’t need to create a hell of a lot of difficultly for them, they seem to find difficulty all by themselves. Believe me I know, I have been one all my life!

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:STRATEGY.....where does it start?
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2007, 03:00:18 PM »
When doing some hobbist routing, on real land, with 2" ele topos, and spending several days walking the land, on very different terrain sites, I found it worked best to find as many potential good green sites as possible, then work back to the best looking LZs, then to a possible approach to the LZ from a potential tee, from on high, occasionally from below (but not too much) or roughly level.  I tried to look for LZs on first LZ par 5s and TPs of par 4s that had a good 75-100 yards of usable width, ~100 yards of depth and natural roll or slope.  

My two most disparate pieces of land were what I still believe is as good of a piece of land as you could dream of in the sand hills, and the other was 280 acres of Wisconsin dairy farm land with a meandering 'navigable' stream through a 20-30ft deep basin that ranged from 50 to 200 yards wide, and unremarkable gently rolling cornfield land taking up about 2/3rds of the property.

On the sand hill land, there were greensites galore...probably similar to the constellation map legend of SHGC.  You had so many choices, and with 800 acres to play with, you could not help but find the choice LZs, blowouts to incorporate in LZs or near greensites and exciting rolls in the land.  That was just so much fun, that I can't really describe the kick I got out of the process... maybe some of the best fun I have ever had related to golf.  

On the WI farm land, I found 8 nice green sites down in the creekway basin or on the ledges above, and worked back from there to logical approach directions to a TP and then look for a tee to set up to the LZ in an interesting way.

It seems to me, that with a more compressed unremarkable acreage, you have to go more from tee to green, than where you have oodles of choices.  Where there are at least 7-12 good-great greensites, you are more in the green backwards sort of mode.

But, the feature placements on most projects, beyond the use of natural slopes and rolls, is a matter of construction and placement for strategy.  Your shaper, and your feel for the game drives those placements, shapes and utimately strategy.  Since those situations are where you create the strategy via shaping and contouring, you are only as good as your construction crew, and your common golf sense and imagination.  

I'm really liking Paul Cowley's post on this matter because he seems to be the most flexible as to the approach.  

And, to paraphrase my old bootlegging grandpa, 'never trust an archie that doesn't have a drink while out there for long hours doing the routing and strategy'.   ;) ;D 8)

No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:STRATEGY.....where does it start?
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2007, 03:25:55 PM »
Guys....I did not mean to phrase my question so that it taken to mean the routing strategy.....I am speaking of the strategy within the individual holes....example....you could have an otstanding routing and have two guys place a course within that routing using the same green sites and tee sites yet have two completely different strategies....for example...one could have a natural dogleg left hole with an elongated green site running on a ridge left to right....one archie might set up the green first with a fall from right to left that makes an approach from the right side of the fairway much more difficult vs looking don the throat of the green from the left hand side....he may say to hell with bnkers and lull the player into a tee shot out to the right  WHEREAS another archie might place a carry bunker in the left turnpoint and a sight bunker out around 320 on the right so as to set up the tee ball then he may have a green that uses the same ridge space but he slopes the surface from left to right and laces a couple of tiers whereby a shot to the proper tier from the narrower fairway is recpetive and leaves a fairly easy putt.....Just me..dont now if it maes sense or not....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Doug Ralston

Re:STRATEGY.....where does it start?
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2007, 06:55:05 PM »
And, so far, no one has tried to answer my questions about GCA strategy planning for shorter tees.

*twiddle*

Doug

Randy Thompson

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Re:STRATEGY.....where does it start?
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2007, 07:18:27 PM »
Doug,
 I can't speak for others but I try to have 25% difference in the back tee and the front. If you are twenty five percent shorter then those back tees you will still be in the area of the meat but if your a longer hitter and a 20 plus handicapp then your going to find a lot of the meat on the drives behind you but like I said earlier a 20 plus handicapper is gonna find problems along the way somewhere via meat or no meat. For me the meat is gonna come into play around and on the green, remember thats where about 70 percent of the game is played if you consider your second shot into the green and two putts. I fiqure the average back tee players drive is gonna be around 270 and therefore the shorter tee requires a drive of around 200 yards to reach the targeted landing area. Sometimes the bunkers are used as signals or for framing the landing area or to produce deception, lots of reasons, not always penal as I assume you are refering to, "the meat"! So, I might set up a bunker at 300 plus yards to frame the targeted landing area, not to have it actually come into play for the player on the back tee or any tee for that matter and if you happen to be playing the front tees and nail one, you just might find some meat anyways. :)

Brent Hutto

Re:STRATEGY.....where does it start?
« Reply #22 on: October 14, 2007, 07:46:09 PM »
Not trying to sidetrack this excellent thread but here's something I was thinking about at my club this weekend. Recently I've had some success with swing changes and I'm hitting the ball about 6, 7, 8 yards longer with my irons and about 15 yards longer on average with the driver. That is not a huge increase but from the usual men's tees (6,250 yards) my home course plays a lot easier than it did hitting it just slightly shorter.

Is it possible to evaluate the design of a course in terms of whether it has a decided breakpoint in difficulty at some certain length (from any given set of tees). I've seen some older Ross courses where there were ridge lines in the landing area for tee shots that probably have this characteristic. Our course (Ellis Maples c. 1961) probably has a bit of Ross DNA for that matter but boy, if you can land up on those ridges you're hitting two or more clubs shorter into the green than if you're just 10-15 yards further back.

If there is a definable, evaluable dimension of a course's "strategy" along these lines, is it a good thing a bad thing or neutral? Personally, I think it's kind of cool. After all you can always move up a set of tees if you like. But it can be somewhat limiting to players right on the cusp, don't you think?

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:STRATEGY.....where does it start?
« Reply #23 on: October 14, 2007, 07:47:02 PM »
And, so far, no one has tried to answer my questions about GCA strategy planning for shorter tees.

*twiddle*

Doug

Doug,
I really don't know how to place a strategic set  of  front tees......that may sound goofy but if the average lady is doing well to hit a driver 125 yards and that is half the distance of the back tee player....then the woman should be in the same area if her tee is 125 yards in front of the back tee player.....however the approach remains the same distance for all players....therefore approach strategies are out the window....JMO
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jim Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:STRATEGY.....where does it start?
« Reply #24 on: October 14, 2007, 09:07:24 PM »
Strategy has to start at the goal and last I knew no one ever tried to figure out how many strokes it takes to get to the tee.  Hole lengths and design options maybe narrowed by a given routing, but the contouring and featuring of the green site and the attributes of its subsequent pinable areas will dictate the approach needed to maximize reaching the hole in good form.
Jim Thompson

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